Jason Frame: it's like the old minutes for people to learn.
Sally MacFarlane: hi.
Jason Frame: 90 minutes.
Danno Ferrin: i'm still working on getting my audio so.
Danno Ferrin: So who's conducting a meeting.
Jason Frame: yeah i'm doing today Square.
Jason Frame: For get started actually spoke to about five paths that I think we're going to bring more people.
Danno Ferrin: Okay, if there's a wait till five colleagues must must not must not have.
Jason Frame: My head actually i'm not sure how long will usually wait I just thought it'd be nicer.
Jason Frame: Number give you.
Jason Frame: Time to grow.
Sally MacFarlane: And people want said arriving till five paths.
Jason Frame: exactly right.
Jason Frame: I think there's probably there's probably enough time for people, we can get started.
Jason Frame: share my screen.
Jason Frame: start with the housekeeping.
Jason Frame: So this is a burger by by the antitrust policy there you can get all the haka like to welcome rational that.
Jason Frame: Just a reminder that this meeting is being recorded and stay on mute.
Jason Frame: Unless you're speaking in you can use the right time to ask questions.
Jason Frame: All right, let's uh you know doesn't look like there's any general announcements, but.
Jason Frame: With anyone here, is there any general announcements that anyone, like to make.
Danno Ferrin: i'm hyper ledger global forum will be happening in four weeks does that, when the next call next be.
Danno Ferrin: So yeah this is next call is scheduled to be during the.
Danno Ferrin: week before we go to calendar.
Danno Ferrin: But I don't know if they're going to stream the talks if they're going to record them and post them later I don't know what the plan is there.
Jason Frame: Okay.
Danno Ferrin: Well, to.
Danno Ferrin: yeah global forum will be during this during this call next.
Danno Ferrin: it'll be in the middle, the night when everyone's sleeping.
Jason Frame: alright.
Sally MacFarlane: So it's not any conflict with this call, as such, but it will be on it that.
Danno Ferrin: Just everyone that's on site will be sleeping because it's gonna be in the middle there.
Jason Frame: Right okay.
Jason Frame: So there's probably no name.
Jason Frame: Key things that he needs to change the this meaning, you know what do you think this means is really a time that.
Jason Frame: You know people think they doing.
Danno Ferrin: The problem changing any meeting time and skipping cadences everyone gets out all out of schedule.
Jason Frame: yeah it's true it's probably better just to keep it actually like people must recording but.
Jason Frame: yeah.
Jason Frame: And, are there any guys there but it talks that they have a live chat.
Danno Ferrin: there's a few i'm giving one talking about.
Danno Ferrin: My experience migraines easy stuff to head era and some of the issues you might experience courting on an edm virtual machine.
Danno Ferrin: into a blockchain it's not necessarily a standard ethereum chain there's there's a lot of subtle differences, so I think there's about another 30 minutes of time there about three minutes of content, which is linked to the talk, I saw one on a schedule about.
Danno Ferrin: The POs transition for based Su and there's a couple of industry, talks are some of the industry partners partners through using basic so some talks out there with that.
Jason Frame: sounds interesting collect the links afterwards.
What some.
Jason Frame: More later on in and I don't know if there's been any changes to the pricing right in there.
Jason Frame: So I think yeah we've already gotten to talk about.
Jason Frame: Fish I know right so we'll talk about that I don't see anything else.
Danno Ferrin: about it there's a lot more basic talks and I thought.
Jason Frame: yeah that's good.
Jason Frame: They want to talk about I think in the roadmap.
Danno Ferrin: So i've got the Shanghai update and the work updates.
yeah.
Danno Ferrin: performance will follow, and we need to get to Shanghai stuff done first before we work on the performance ideas I have.
Jason Frame: All right, well yeah let's talk about the general work updates that's the next one anyway sorry not not quite.
Jason Frame: So there's the 28 point 7.1 release plan early next week so that's has to be for the 22nd I believe.
Jason Frame: So they'll be coming out.
Jason Frame: Is there anything else on the the update other than the obvious change that needs to go in with the day any change for my name.
Danno Ferrin: um so my chitchat with the American them on the slack it's mostly focused on merge and.
Jason Frame: That makes sense.
Danno Ferrin: And the vibe I get as if it's not critical for merge, we should think about not getting getting point one.
Jason Frame: And that's a good point so you should buy anything it's not critical to make sure that's a solid really is.
Danno Ferrin: yeah it's critical go ahead and put it into it's not critical especially.
Danno Ferrin: If it's experimental for the sake of being experimental it's the wrong release to go in.
yeah.
Sally MacFarlane: There was a bug.
i'm.
Sally MacFarlane: talking point like skipping a block and not going back and catching up so that fixes gone in it's been that, so I think there's a few people waiting on that one.
Jason Frame: Okay.
Jason Frame: just go soon too late, breaking up there really is a critical updates.
Jason Frame: don't let it go to this nice afterwards as we.
Jason Frame: move on to our updates and so I.
Jason Frame: didn't have any updates on the on the Shanghai.
Jason Frame: I think you mentioned something about that, before.
Danno Ferrin: yeah i've got a couple of Shanghai updates, so the first question for Shanghai, is how do we want to manage it it's been a year it's been London since we've had a regular feature feature fork.
Danno Ferrin: Since London everything's been merged and all this crazy we architected for the engineer guy.
Danno Ferrin: um so we're kind of out of practice for this, and the question is, when do we want to open up the Shanghai block in the config.
Danno Ferrin: And how do we want to do we want to bring other experimental features in and how do we want to protect it, I know, we had Berlin and.
Danno Ferrin: For Berlin we put a feature flag in that you had to do a coi flag to enable it until the Berlin features were locked in on an awkward desk call.
Danno Ferrin: And i'm wondering if that's the same practice, we want to do for Shanghai and for other experimental features that anything that's not locked in as a specification on awkward deb's requires a feature flags enabled on the command line to explicitly and deliberately turn it on.
Jason Frame: I think your facts sounds like a very sensible approach to me at least anywhere.
Danno Ferrin: Okay.
Jason Frame: your thoughts I guess, we can continue the conversation in the in the discord but.
Danno Ferrin: yeah.
Danno Ferrin: i'll get a PR together to pitch that because some of my stuff is getting ready to come in Shanghai targeted.
yeah.
Jason Frame: Thanks for whoever added that in.
Jason Frame: Thanks.
Jason Frame: yeah we can can see a conversation but yeah I think that feature flags sounds like a really sensible approach I guess we're not going to know for a while what's actually going to be official in Shanghai.
Jason Frame: there's also a simulated Shanghai vm.
Jason Frame: work outside here is that also thank you.
Jason Frame: yeah you're.
Danno Ferrin: The first line is my first line is nice stuff um.
Danno Ferrin: So if you click on the Shanghai blue link up.
Danno Ferrin: To levels.
Danno Ferrin: That goes to the what is the roadmap that they have set up for it.
Danno Ferrin: And there are six VIP consider for inclusion.
Danno Ferrin: Right now that's as official as Shanghai, as I mean.
Danno Ferrin: The point that we're at is there finally pulling out of the fog of shipping the merge, and we need to start thinking about.
Danno Ferrin: The other features for 4895 is going to be the big one be contained withdrawals.
Danno Ferrin: And that's you know something that hasn't been defined very well yet.
Danno Ferrin: I assume that you know either either just an A Gary you're probably going to work on that one does that's mostly involved with the work they've been doing on the merge and then that's not firm yet, but all the other features are almost entirely backlog dvm features a push zero instruction.
Danno Ferrin: code jumps limit meter Nick code warm the code 20 days.
Danno Ferrin: And so the top for the Elf ones get ready has some stuff not merged yet make merge the push zero instruction visits it's like a trivial instruction to do.
Danno Ferrin: But some of the other ones are getting ready to get some implementations ready for for some of these features so.
Danno Ferrin: The ones that I have halfway there are 3540 and 36 seven easy and logic format and code validation and i'm getting ready to work to wire those in which is why I brought up those issues with getting in Shanghai block and figure out how to bring those features in.
Danno Ferrin: So that the to the ips i'm working on right now.
Danno Ferrin: I mean they work there's there's a small amount of test cases there's another tip out there that isn't included in Shanghai yet.
Danno Ferrin: But the need for it came up since the the merge went in full focus mode and that is transmitted storage T store and see load operations and the intent for this here is that.
Danno Ferrin: They need some sort of a whiteboard that can be shared across call contexts, not just in call frame so if i'm.
Danno Ferrin: One contract and I call someone else and they called me back that I have something to work with, and right now the only real option, they have is a storage.
Danno Ferrin: Which is kind of expensive and pointless if they know they're going to clear it so what they're asking for is a transient storage that's attached to each.
Danno Ferrin: Each accounts through the execution and again, subject to the same rollback rules as as a store and memory, and this would be for you know any context that uses that account, no matter.
Danno Ferrin: Where they're on stack and whether they come back or not, and that is the name you click on the PR it's another person that's working on it.
Danno Ferrin: Because I see the.
Jason Frame: Report where.
Danno Ferrin: that's not the link, I meant to put in there.
Danno Ferrin: But he's he's basically got a working implementation against the test so that's one that's probably going to be a good candidate for Shanghai as well, so there's a couple of these changes coming into the vm.
Danno Ferrin: Like they've got tests ready to go and the reference test format and it's been working I feel bad because i'm sandbagging it on them, because I don't want it to go into laughter the merge update goes so.
Jason Frame: Go.
Danno Ferrin: Live systems first so.
Jason Frame: yeah and so you think the things like this, the picture flag as well that makes sense, like this is.
Jason Frame: Yes, yeah.
Danno Ferrin: Yes.
Danno Ferrin: I think those should have a feature flags.
Danno Ferrin: On this was when he happy 5059 before it was booked in London, it was.
Danno Ferrin: gated behind a similar feature flags.
Danno Ferrin: So.
Jason Frame: makes a lot of sense.
Jason Frame: anymore, you might want to add to work tights or even on a timeline.
Jason Frame: type is a nice now.
Jason Frame: With a smaller business here so.
Jason Frame: When an idea that CRM integration, I saw that PR.
Jason Frame: comes through.
Jason Frame: The way nice what the status of that is.
Danno Ferrin: Not just what I read on chat.
Jason Frame: yeah I know that there's a PR open for for doing exactly that I don't know much else about this anyone have any thoughts on whether it's the right thing to do, we may have to get her direction so.
Danno Ferrin: So one thing that was pointed out by by Ray Jones online, is that we only have about three months of circle ci credits left and hyper ledger foundation doesn't really want to re up the circle ci credits.
Danno Ferrin: So that's one of the things pushing this migration.
Danno Ferrin: You know, we could you know, probably, you know, put the heavy on them and make them do the circle ci if we wanted to but there's a lot of things that going to get have access to make easier it's whole song and dance we've had with.
Danno Ferrin: With getting the sonar stuff fixed would have been a lot easier on github actions, instead of circle ci.
Danno Ferrin: So there are some advantages there a little bit cheaper I think hyper ledger has a better deal with it so it's going to be more proven with hyper ledger response to go to circle ci and apparently wants done all the work for us so.
Sally MacFarlane: yeah I think.
Sally MacFarlane: For Madison and get have action is going to make some things easier i'm not sure about the cost when we looked at this, a while ago.
Sally MacFarlane: josh from our Dev OPS team looked into it and he thought that.
Sally MacFarlane: Get her actions was actually going to work out to be more expensive plus some like the compute heavy stuff that we do in circle ci right now.
Sally MacFarlane: But i'm not sure that we can know that, until we actually.
Sally MacFarlane: Do the migration so i'm not sure where we stand, you know I don't know where that leaves us with the contact that.
Danno Ferrin: So I kind of wish I was on that call because I also wonder, do we have circle ci set up to do releases to I mean get have my actions to do releases to because I think circle ci got some specialist josh set up to do releases for us.
Jason Frame: yeah I think they went on mercury that's the X men so.
Sally MacFarlane: yeah we do have separate tasks in the car to publish the oddest docs Is that what you mean tomorrow publish them to.
Danno Ferrin: Right, so when when when circle ci detects a version of.
Danno Ferrin: Its.
Sally MacFarlane: place in the name.
Danno Ferrin: Right.
Danno Ferrin: yeah and I think it's in the actual.
Sally MacFarlane: An APP look in the details on this trigger somehow magically.
Danno Ferrin: The branches have different issues, I think it's when when we put a tag on there.
Danno Ferrin: Which is something that automatically doesn't build, but it does more pushes and more final stuff.
Sally MacFarlane: yeah yeah basically publishing and the docker.
Sally MacFarlane: questions that we have been on this, or do we need to get input from the.
Danno Ferrin: Other questions or.
Danno Ferrin: When we want to switch over can be handled releases.
Jason Frame: and carry idea what the if it has any impact on the bill time does it comparable to circle car.
Danno Ferrin: No idea.
Jason Frame: yeah.
Jason Frame: And it feels quite long as it is.
Danno Ferrin: it's yeah it's a lot of stuff like the qb empty container chests really added to it.
Danno Ferrin: And we keep adding more tests, the tests never go down.
Danno Ferrin: there's a number of tests.
Jason Frame: yeah unfortunately that.
Jason Frame: yeah my time for this i'm just i'm just going about that one which really.
Jason Frame: didn't want to go through the metrics.
Jason Frame: And we've got saying here in the.
Jason Frame: paper form here.
Jason Frame: about the yuppie process, possibly changing for the craft Q well.
Sally MacFarlane: yeah I put that in there, I don't understand.
Sally MacFarlane: And i've asked you know, no one seems to really understand.
Sally MacFarlane: what's going on with the IP process does anyone think.
Danno Ferrin: Organized chaos.
Danno Ferrin: So.
Danno Ferrin: what's happened in the past year um This is my half and half a perspective of what's going on as a lot of the core developers just don't don't use it anymore.
Danno Ferrin: um one of the problems is the IP editors have some very strange rules and it's very difficult to get them to get your stuff merge and proposed.
Danno Ferrin: and other core developers just plain old don't like writing them they don't want to write these the ips and socialize that they just want to write their code.
Danno Ferrin: Post a web page with their spec and say hey you have to let this now there's been pushed back from a number of developers that they just don't want to do the Iraqi process.
Danno Ferrin: And it's like oh come on it's been in client expert so many years, there was copy that can we just standardize it.
Danno Ferrin: So, and that also goes in with some of the editors we don't have a very formal and very strict process, and one of the biggest.
Danno Ferrin: Complaints is that we can't do external links.
Danno Ferrin: And then they can't get enough editors to to uphold this and so there's a couple of repose that have opened up there's execution specs.
Danno Ferrin: And and a consensus specs and also execution api's and where this comes in, with graph que well is the core depth to do networking on clients, other than they Sue.
Danno Ferrin: For the most part, decided that we're not doing ips we can do everything execution api's and we're just going to specify it there and we're not going to pay any attention to it, yet the repo.
Danno Ferrin: So this execution api's repose being seated from some of the spec and also some of the current implementation so arguments of saying that you know hey your graph que El doesn't follow us back, they just say we don't care.
Danno Ferrin: We follow the execution API and execution API just came from a dump from their graph que El endpoint so it's it's a deterioration the standardization process.
Danno Ferrin: And i'm not terribly happy about it but it's where we're at so the way to play this game is to is to get their execution API specs updated.
Danno Ferrin: and move it towards it, so I actually went into the execution API spec and.
Danno Ferrin: added a graph que El schema rather than using the javascript schema that they've been using to validate that not every it isn't really even standard Dracula, and so my next step now that this is in is i'm going to roll back some of the changes that came in that weren't.
Danno Ferrin: weren't part of the spec and actually contradict the spec in the VIP and get that to be the standard.
Danno Ferrin: and actually have this battle is that the standard matter, or is it what a particular client of lists that matters and just.
Danno Ferrin: dirt there needs to be a winner from this, it needs to be one way or the other, and if it's not going to be there we're gonna have sex and let's get rid of this kabuki dance and let's just do with the client say.
Danno Ferrin: This middle ground or pretending we have specs and then not following them is is is detrimental it's going to burn us.
Danno Ferrin: So this brings us closer this PR that I have now that the other specs merge brings us closer to the IP specs and some of the things have changed on graph key well and that I think are good and some things that are not good.
Danno Ferrin: 2930 and 5059 changes are good so we'll just take what was proposed by the other client indirectly.
Danno Ferrin: Adding the receipt Ross I think is useful, but there are some other things that they've changed, such as making fields optional that were required required fields that are optional.
Danno Ferrin: and adding fields that no other API in all of json rpc uses to the spec and it just doesn't make sense to implement that.
Danno Ferrin: So those are the some some of the battles and planning to have in the next couple of weeks on the execution API PR.
Danno Ferrin: But once you know now that the the main spec of getting graphical spec is, and I think we can commit the accident, we can't commit it now we're going to wait until after the marriage happens.
Danno Ferrin: to live by.
pitch.
Sally MacFarlane: yeah good thanks Dan I that's good additional context.
Danno Ferrin: So yeah it's not an ideal place.
Danno Ferrin: Or you know there's there's a lot of work that people couldn't the IP and it's really disappointing to see four players ignore it and dismiss it.
Danno Ferrin: And there's no teeth to it if you're not a compliant with the IP there's no teeth to it, no one cares.
Danno Ferrin: it's not like there's a conformance spec that you can push and they'll just change the conformance back to match their.
Danno Ferrin: Their implementation anyway so it's.
Danno Ferrin: Now this is the joys of decentralized standardized standard making.
Jason Frame: So Carlos and Carlos know aspect, it anyway thanks for that, then I, and I think I also recorded or.
Jason Frame: Maybe awkward Davis was saying that I will try to do, probably both processes at once in a while see what works for yes i'm interested to see what happens.
Jason Frame: I think that might be everything will go on the agenda there.
Jason Frame: Is anything else anyone wants to.
Jason Frame: Cover while we're here.
Jason Frame: All right, okay there's no stop sharing.
Sally MacFarlane: Thanks.
Danno Ferrin: Thanks.
Sally MacFarlane: Everyone on.
Gabriel Fukushima: But thanks.