Grace Hartley: wow I did myself, I never do that.
Grace Hartley: cool, so this is a basic distributor call.
Grace Hartley: It is January 31 in.
Grace Hartley: The America has it is February 1 in a pack, so the APEC friendly call i've dropped the agenda in the chat, so I will share my screen for a moment.
Grace Hartley: I think we need to.
Grace Hartley: do this.
Grace Hartley: So housekeeping antitrust notice.
Grace Hartley: stakeholder look at it, I think everyone's familiar with it here means we recording as you saw please mute unless speaking, if you have questions feel free to use the raise your hand feature and.
Grace Hartley: code of conduct also take a look at that as well, which is not linked here but.
Grace Hartley: Also important for hyper ledger meetings.
Grace Hartley: Pretty straightforward agenda today with just basically one item if we get through the rest of it then amazing we can.
Grace Hartley: move on, but I have a feeling i'll probably take the bulk of the time which is fine it's important I know it's taken us a few weeks, get here so that's all right so anyway we'll be talking about the Center program and the proposal for.
Grace Hartley: Basically, how the vc community wants to facilitate.
Grace Hartley: will link to this one, for the record, there are there's this proposal that I shared.
Grace Hartley: Late last week Wednesday, Thursday Tuesday i'm not sure, but I shared it there's also a proposal that Dana shared also last week called proposal 3.5.
Grace Hartley: Then yeah, so I think that's kind of the the just.
We see.
Grace Hartley: TIM is not here only just make sure they think he is critical to this conversation.
Grace Hartley: He has not responded to me saying in mind trying to get them on discord.
Grace Hartley: I can drag.
Grace Hartley: These.
Grace Hartley: rats.
Grace Hartley: Then I guess, we will proceed.
Grace Hartley: Without him.
Grace Hartley: Go Okay, then you will probably not go as far as I would hope, just because he is not here.
Grace Hartley: Starting at the top, so I think there are kind of a couple of differences that I noticed between the two, and they wanted to discuss those in particular.
Grace Hartley: And then we my ideas, we need to talk about those two items which I can put in the chat helpful.
Grace Hartley: And then would love to have us.
Grace Hartley: So this i'm just going to put this in jax clean.
Grace Hartley: First, one is just kind of the items of the organization's this current agreements, including I think they're two different takes on it and Dino and mind.
Grace Hartley: You want to discuss that to talk about the withdrawal keys, and then I would love for us to kind of then go into the guiding principles themselves and hopefully through the rest of it, but I think those are kind of the High Level items that makes most sense does that sound right.
Danno Ferrin: yeah.
Grace Hartley: Alright, so first up is.
Grace Hartley: is, I think the so this version obviously included just consensus hyper ledger and foundation a Daniels version included.
Grace Hartley: portal so i'm sure.
Grace Hartley: Sorry.
Grace Hartley: Yes, Sir, yes.
Grace Hartley: yeah.
Danno Ferrin: yeah if.
Danno Ferrin: you're open sourcing new stuff and.
Danno Ferrin: there's a lot of other inside housekeeping and they need to do so they're moving everyone's with smaller cup two different company called scrolls labs it's not there for i'm sure there's lawyers can talk you through through yeah.
Danno Ferrin: yeah.
Grace Hartley: But just want to make sure I say that correctly, I think the original idea behind the program was.
Grace Hartley: To be just between consensus hyper ledger and the F I don't want to speak for him because he's not here, which is unfortunate, but.
Grace Hartley: I think.
Grace Hartley: In the current state.
Grace Hartley: I don't think the ef was okay with it another organization for now with that doesn't mean that can't change in the future, and I want to discuss with this group obviously you deanna and others to gain alignment there.
Danno Ferrin: With my concern.
Danno Ferrin: When only consensus is but in is is kind of putting up the Gold Coast saying this is consensus is territory stay out intentionally or otherwise, where the desk the intense that's the effect it has.
Danno Ferrin: So that's why I tried to write it generically in terms of patrons and say that, yes, consensus is one of the patrons.
Danno Ferrin: But not writing out because some of the verbiage in there, it implies that only consensus is party to certain you know rights liquidation and only consensus.
Danno Ferrin: has certain privileges that might not be included other people who might come in later on, it really feels like it is still boxing off space for consensus that only consensus can play it.
Danno Ferrin: And that is the fundamental basis of my concern of all these agreements going forward is as long as.
Danno Ferrin: Only consensus is listed as the only party it's it's really continuing to drive a wedge between there's consensus contributors and not consensus contributors.
Danno Ferrin: And before this thing came out, we were making great progress and ever getting all sorts of great contributions from Diego I was able to do a lot of great contributions from that era.
Danno Ferrin: You know Ryan was looking at coming back and doing some of this stuff but now it feels like if you're not an employee, there is not work for you, here I mean whether or not, that was the intent that's how it feels now.
Grace Hartley: I definitely don't think that was the intent.
Grace Hartley: But I see your point, I think the.
Grace Hartley: wording here is is just to make it easier to follow it's not a at this point, it is only consensus, the F and hyper ledger better and the hyper ledger and consensus of the only ones that are going to be patrons i'm happy to you know insert patron and then.
Grace Hartley: When say current patrons are consensus and hyper ledger and there's kind of the guiding principle say the ef you know can.
Grace Hartley: stay there, you know or and it says explicitly you know they can invite others or and set up their own kind of guidelines for setting up an agreement with them, I think the concern is just.
Grace Hartley: Making it solving for the current problem versus solving for a hypothetical future state, so the idea by this.
Grace Hartley: This current the agreement, I put out this week there was a number three was just to make it clear that this is the current state, but that doesn't mean.
Grace Hartley: And for clarity sake, not.
Grace Hartley: Not for.
Grace Hartley: Making it on welcome, but for clarity sake.
Danno Ferrin: that most of the changes in proposal 3.5 there's a distinct to it um I did do a gift on my personal space if.
Danno Ferrin: You want to review that and that's the fundamental difference Danielle do we can you say about it.
Daniela Barbosa: Now first thank you for doing that second I haven't been able to look at it until I pulled it up right now, and so I will look in detail, and then I just want to.
Daniela Barbosa: Just.
Daniela Barbosa: backup what grace just said, because I was on a call with the F and that was what TIM and I don't know if he's joined yet had indicated last week in our discussions.
Daniela Barbosa: So I just want to confirm that what grace just said is the same thing with with TIM and as i've said before, this really is a ef.
Daniela Barbosa: Project, you know program so they need to put the credentials in place and then we've been used to help support it.
Daniela Barbosa: But i'm looking at your.
Daniela Barbosa: or your at your document, now the one with the page history.
Grace Hartley: yeah unfortunately yeah we can't.
Grace Hartley: Without him here we you know, obviously you can't take our word for it, but so.
Grace Hartley: That was the idea is that, yes, this is the current state it doesn't mean the currency can't change and we could try to capture that in this of you know if new organizations, you know.
Grace Hartley: yeah so like I mean even got a principle here at 333 foundational will.
Grace Hartley: Provide feature will only provide future organizations that jump straight to support for basis may network access to the points will capital so.
Danno Ferrin: The key here is there was a discussion between consensus me up and hyper ledger knowing issues are out here and to know that no other retainer was invited that's kind of a good shot.
Daniela Barbosa: And it was with the F and.
Daniela Barbosa: hyper ledger and my and our Linux foundation lawyers as well and Ryan oh.
Danno Ferrin: By the way, it was called few minutes ago, I thought it was a three way meeting to meeting so.
Danno Ferrin: that's your meeting didn't happen like that, but it sounds like there was a three way meeting.
Daniela Barbosa: There was a meeting between the.
Daniela Barbosa: Linux foundation, legal and myself, and it was TIM and.
Daniela Barbosa: Ryan i'm blanking on his last name.
But.
Daniela Barbosa: Why am I black.
Daniela Barbosa: Ryan at the me see here i'll pull it up on my calendar.
Daniela Barbosa: They only put first names on their their emails.
Danno Ferrin: Right and that's that's really where.
Danno Ferrin: We started it was a three way discussion was only to me.
Grace Hartley: yeah um.
Grace Hartley: I guess, I mean like until we get alignment on that first point there's probably no no point in continuing.
Grace Hartley: cuz that's kind of the fundamental basis.
Grace Hartley: And I don't want to speak for him because he's not here.
Grace Hartley: So I think we could probably just move along in the agenda and continue this at another contributor call in the next couple weeks we'll make sure to enjoy.
Daniela Barbosa: i'm just looking just to make sure I didn't miss anything were there any additional comments from the Community on donald's proposal.
Danno Ferrin: There was a discussion in chat to Diego and Gary Gary made a good point that weren't respecting all me generous where we just doing lean.
Danno Ferrin: And tempt trying to do with because if yours, meaning that we only want to benefit, but that again falls into the same category of tim's not here to speak to his word, so I don't know if there's much worth going into without to represent the if you wanna.
Danno Ferrin: And Gary point that's what i'll say.
Daniela Barbosa: that's on the contributors.
Daniela Barbosa: chat correct.
yeah.
Daniela Barbosa: i'll go look at it.
Grace Hartley: yeah we will reschedule this, because without that first point of redefine without to me like.
Grace Hartley: Other fun stuff.
Grace Hartley: metrics with you so first of all, just I guess look into this, if anyone has any work updates obviously just government or you know when we can jump to that first.
Grace Hartley: But if not we'll proceed with the.
Grace Hartley: burnham show.
Grace Hartley: So this is the first time that he was many years so in case anyone hasn't seen this, this is the fx insights dashboard.
Grace Hartley: which provides some interesting.
Grace Hartley: Like just metrics on the contributor strength, so one of the calls, we had a few weeks ago, a month ago, something like that we talked about just you know.
Grace Hartley: bringing this up at the start of every meeting to see how the Community is working together see what you know and just be kind of metric driven on you know, on the open source.
Grace Hartley: Community item, so we will get better this we will review these if people review this on their own time and say hey we should be talking about this in the country radical.
Grace Hartley: Let me know.
Grace Hartley: But for now we're just going to do a quick rundown and we'll kind of get better over time looking at it yeah.
Grace Hartley: So contributor strength.
Grace Hartley: Slowly but surely we've been growing up, this has been a pretty consistent number over the last few years to be clear it's kind of fun to toggle between the different time so there's six months, for example, which is pretty flat.
Grace Hartley: And you can kind of see the different metrics from their active contributors in the last six months, you can see.
Grace Hartley: You can see kind of the trend lines seems to have more trending away or drifting away and.
Grace Hartley: People are joining so that's something to keep in mind for us.
Grace Hartley: To be welcoming to new computers.
Grace Hartley: Is commits again kind of flat little bit of growth 11% growth.
Grace Hartley: And i'm just doing this quickly if anyone wants to spend more time talking about one just raise your hand.
Grace Hartley: There is.
Grace Hartley: This is new contributor growth again, you can see, in September, we had quite a few, I think that was from dana's em update, but again it's been a little pick up the last couple couple of months here.
Grace Hartley: This is cool commit to a new contributor, so it seems that we've kind of had.
Grace Hartley: You could argue, a trend line here, and it was going through the top.
Grace Hartley: With a little dip over Christmas, which probably makes sense and again will dip here, but overall, that I would say, actually this looks commits Many contributors that's.
Grace Hartley: promising it my my opinion.
Grace Hartley: You know.
Grace Hartley: Average churn rate.
Grace Hartley: And this kind of this is interesting go ahead.
Sally MacFarlane: I was just gonna say it would be interesting to know if there's a connection between like new contributors, and then you know, like whether they stay and contribute further so like maybe new contributors, is that their first contribution, or is that just.
Sally MacFarlane: don't know how that you new contributors as defined, but if if those new contributors stick around, and that would be interesting to know.
Danno Ferrin: There was a related discussion on the tlc call last week, trying to get drill down on some of these metrics mean, I think the street.
Danno Ferrin: There are some some semantics, the numbers that kind of communicate that but you know we have to read the help files to get the exact definition of what those are in, it has to do with.
Danno Ferrin: Retraining contributors and losing contributors cost three and how well spread out top 80% of your contributors are so.
Danno Ferrin: Those are some of the some of the metrics that go in there and that again this is across all Linux foundation projects, not just hyper ledger so there's a lot of different Community measures they want to figure out for all of our communities.
Grace Hartley: yeah.
Grace Hartley: Great question.
Grace Hartley: yeah.
Sally MacFarlane: I guess.
Sally MacFarlane: I was just gonna say there's probably a number of contributors who can give me once and then never come back.
Grace Hartley: I think that's supposed to be captured in the.
Grace Hartley: ternary.
Sally MacFarlane: one.
Grace Hartley: Or is this one.
Grace Hartley: For the drift away one.
Grace Hartley: See.
Grace Hartley: I guess, this is a good one, but.
Grace Hartley: So I guess is the total number of drifting away, which is interesting it's not like 54 drifting away.
Grace Hartley: each month, you know I think this is cumulative right you sorry good.
Ry Jones: Sure, I posted a link in the chat.
Ry Jones: To the discord this course server for insights.
Ry Jones: Everyone is welcome to jump on there and start asking questions and start.
Ry Jones: Making feature requests and like they are very much wanting to hear from the community of users, that go beyond lf employees, so please go there, ask questions provide feedback.
Thank you very much.
Grace Hartley: And thanks for dropping the link will at those notes.
Grace Hartley: yeah but so it's all good questions, I think we hyperlink are generally.
Grace Hartley: are new to this, even though the tlc so but you're asking the right questions and I think we'll get better and better over time.
Grace Hartley: This is kind of different roles kind of interesting there's a third, a third third.
Grace Hartley: code pipeline, so this is interesting so.
Grace Hartley: In the last six months, there were 583 commits 590 were submitted 505 reviewed for 78 proved and 502 merged.
Grace Hartley: 11% of risky changes were caught, which we did ask the question the last contributor go what is risky changes mean.
Grace Hartley: But that's good I would imagine and then 7% remote without approval which we kind of speculate it was probably.
Grace Hartley: You know Gary can could answer it or justin, but it was.
Gary Schulte: A feature branch for the merge.
Grace Hartley: Yes, yay Thank you.
Grace Hartley: yeah it was like branching I was gonna say.
Grace Hartley: Thank you.
Grace Hartley: And then.
Grace Hartley: 99.4% of total change that support requests were reviewed word virgin to the upstream British.
Grace Hartley: yeah, this is one of my favorites This is my This is my actual favorite, though, which is a PR cycle time the sound of the average time it takes.
Grace Hartley: For PRS be reviewed and finally emerged, so you can see totals nine days so there's two days for it to be working progress for for to be in reviews the average time and 3.22 is in approval, so I like to look at this because the average reaction time across all the PRS was.
Grace Hartley: Just that was for the average time was to wait for two days, which I think is really great we haven't really been able to.
Grace Hartley: validate that but, but we should look at it across other projects and see if that's good or not.
Grace Hartley: Maybe looking at six months was 9.31 days, what if we did.
Grace Hartley: Three months basically the same 9.41 days so we've been pretty consistent.
Grace Hartley: In approval 3.46 3.2 to maybe a little better, but this is very consistent across the last six months, which is interesting to and then merge efficiency.
Grace Hartley: And average 23 number of changes Roberta within one day.
Grace Hartley: being submitted, so you can see, less than a day this kind of is a cool trend line you could see in six months, definitely seems like that's our highest one.
Grace Hartley: And I think it's really great that there are no almost no more than 30 Dave reviews and then only a few and it's easy and it's our most number of seven to 30 days over the last six months, so kind of cool.
Grace Hartley: issues we definitely have been resolving issues faster than we've been opening them.
Grace Hartley: Over the last like month or two.
Grace Hartley: Maybe it means should we be.
Grace Hartley: Opening more issues or the is the Community just not opening issues or we just doing a great job solving all the issues, maybe it's the last one.
Grace Hartley: The meantime and then i'll just kind of fell through So this is the first time you guys are seeing this i'm pretty sure are in a detailed walkthrough so if there's something you want to spend more time on next time, obviously just let me know.
Grace Hartley: One fun fact is, yet this is the chat channel messages.
Grace Hartley: Something that I found really interesting the tlc call and if i'm remembering the data correctly was that are the basic and basic attributes channel we're like in the last six months.
Grace Hartley: The top two out of three channels being used in rocket chat so definitely seems like there's a lot of good conversation be done there.
Grace Hartley: and different commits from organizations.
Grace Hartley: 82% from affiliated 18% from individual contributors.
Grace Hartley: So yeah, so this is just kind of hot take going through.
Grace Hartley: Any questions comments.
Sally MacFarlane: And can you go back to the issues and versus issues being resolved.
Sally MacFarlane: Because I, I think.
Sally MacFarlane: Maybe the one before that.
Sally MacFarlane: It was issues to resolve this issue yeah so they've the lines have swapped crossed over in the last month.
Sally MacFarlane: which might be something we want to look at.
Grace Hartley: Is there a right answer.
Grace Hartley: Do we want more open issues are resolved issues.
Danno Ferrin: don't want to condition the unresolved issues trending up in when it's inverted that's what happens.
Grace Hartley: yeah that's true that's true yeah we don't want them.
Justin Florentine: yeah I would say, like that little hump over December 16 that's okay that's not a big deal, but what we're looking at here is the derivatives on those are scary.
Justin Florentine: Keep an eye on it could be, you know we're in a heavy design phase, and people are writing up a lot of tickets that are merged related, you know that could be part of it.
Justin Florentine: would be one thing to look for.
Justin Florentine: Looking to see that know a lot of peers, are they even attached to issues if we're doing a lot of stuff that's not attached issues, you know that could explain it to not necessarily bad thing, but explainable.
Grace Hartley: yeah I think that's a good maybe action for the next contributor calling two weeks just take a look at it see kind of if it's still trending up or maybe not.
Ry Jones: I will say I don't know the answer.
Ry Jones: I don't know if the these issues are sorted by like bug bugs or feature requests or whatever the tags are that you're using.
Ry Jones: and
Ry Jones: You know, for me back in the old days, what I cared about was the defined fixed rate, so it wasn't necessarily concerning to me if there was a huge spike in open issues.
Ry Jones: If the fixed rate on those issues by the person or people who were opening them was low if you're opening a bunch of issues don't get fixed that's that is not in and of itself a problem.
Grace Hartley: Good point.
Grace Hartley: Good well we'll keep getting better, and I think yeah good action item of kind of will pick things to look at next meeting that will be one of them look at the.
Danno Ferrin: issues and see.
Grace Hartley: A trend.
Grace Hartley: But I hope everyone enjoyed the.
Grace Hartley: graph show roadmap.
Grace Hartley: And we talked through this in the last meeting around the main updates Sally I think you were nice enough to update with the some of the enterprise features people and just speaking to those briefly if you don't mind.
Sally MacFarlane: I think there wasn't a whole lot to add.
Sally MacFarlane: yeah because a lot of the work that i'm non magnitudes of doing is not related to basic alignment.
Sally MacFarlane: I did add something about moving privacy on chain groups out of early access to make it efficient production nature.
Sally MacFarlane: But that's that's kind of its work that's already it's a feature that's already invasive it's just a matter of you know.
Sally MacFarlane: pushing it up and taking all those boxes, to make it efficient production meeting feature.
cool.
Sally MacFarlane: And and oh.
Grace Hartley: yeah okay.
Sally MacFarlane: And I said I was also going to say that.
Sally MacFarlane: What our team is also helping out the main that team, but some of their work, because they're sort of more main network, then, then they can sort of handle at the moment, so we're helping out with.
Sally MacFarlane: That.
Grace Hartley: makes sense, make sense yeah.
Danno Ferrin: yeah there's gonna have to set up its world class was going to be working on, we got some of our road mapping session internally in the past week I just haven't had time to come back to this roadmap on it i'm probably, let me tell him it's not over.
Danno Ferrin: So much screen of my own crap.
Danno Ferrin: It cutesy we're probably looking at doing some more performance work, you know, possibly getting some experience from.
Danno Ferrin: Seriously, if I can get my screens.
Danno Ferrin: i'm.
Danno Ferrin: losing everything so then we've got some contact with people who used to work on Java vm as far as performance and in creating the types which vm type on.
Danno Ferrin: languages like people who worked on the stuff for.
Danno Ferrin: because someone text him in the meeting still on who has a has a discord so I can talk to this, but they have two people in used to do National Park.
Danno Ferrin: and used to do some some.
Danno Ferrin: Comparison because.
Danno Ferrin: They worked on getting dashboard in it and print it so most people get employed in that so that's what these are looking for performance data in q3.
Danno Ferrin: I was looking at helping out on the other, Shanghai stuff and getting the vm container stuff because making sure that we can handle anything that's live the can spit out is very important to us.
Danno Ferrin: So that's something that we're going to put you know rigorous resources on right now, so as far as the configuration is to basically those are the the probably the two top ones coming out of skills labs in the next two quarters.
Gary Schulte: Am I unmuted.
Grace Hartley: You are unmuted.
Gary Schulte: Okay, Tim is on he says he's on the hyper ledger chat that's on the wiki page, I think the problem is that he has not that zoom link so i'll get them a link and he'll probably be over here in just a bit.
Grace Hartley: Thank you.
Danno Ferrin: I lost all the screens on my second screen, so I think gets me in the chat for some strange reason, otherwise i'd be doing that myself but.
Sally MacFarlane: yeah we did an update the zoom link in the agenda, page.
Grace Hartley: that's.
Sally MacFarlane: Bad I apologize.
Grace Hartley: I should have done that.
Grace Hartley: I think I did it for the American that email this one.
Grace Hartley: But I didn't I didn't email him the correct link buddies other yes speak of the devil I do.
Tim Beiko: hey so sorry about that I thought the call was like 25 minutes from now.
Tim Beiko: I weren't running when I got your email grayson I I turned around me I couldn't.
afford.
Grace Hartley: very sorry no it used to be 9pm Eastern so that's totally understandable up no worries, we were doing some other business, since you weren't here.
Grace Hartley: Just next steps on this rounded out is just I think Dana to update with with the systems items, but that would be great.
Tim Beiko: We can hop.
Grace Hartley: back to the Program.
Grace Hartley: So TIM, one thing that so we were starting with but realize you weren't here, and so it didn't make sense speak for you, so this agreement or so.
Grace Hartley: The idea behind the incentive program in its current state is to be with consensus and hyper ledger as the I guess patron organizations it's a good way to say it.
Grace Hartley: And there will be.
Grace Hartley: A few organizations, want to be considered the ef and hyper ledger can agree to ask them to it, but they won't be in this current one is, am I saying that correctly, please state that, however.
Tim Beiko: I guess maybe take a step back and like.
Tim Beiko: You know I read both proposals talked with.
Tim Beiko: A few some other consensus votes and then down to who wrote the proposal 3.5, and so I think.
Tim Beiko: You know there's there's two main kind of portions of the program like the recurring fees and the validator credentials, and I think when.
Tim Beiko: I think my general position is like when when thinking about the fees, it makes sense for people to be able to get access to the funds from those kind of very quickly, so you know.
Tim Beiko: I think they're kind of the requirement of of you know just working on stuff that that's relevant the main method and being a maintainer seems.
Tim Beiko: seems sufficient, and I think with regards to the withdrawal credential The goal of the program is really to provide those two organizations who've zero like.
Tim Beiko: Significant supports towards the theorem a net and and plan to keep on on doing so in the future there's a whole bunch of you know, different ways, you can you can look at that.
Tim Beiko: But I like high level that's that's the idea I think today and also you know yeah organizations that like have done that.
Tim Beiko: In the past, and like have you know sort of track record of doing it and kind of continuing in the future and.
Tim Beiko: I think today like when we when we look at just the different organizations, contributing to base you consensus obviously makes a lot of sense.
Tim Beiko: Basically, was created there before move to hyper ledger has a large teams that were base you so that's you know that's kind of a no brainer from from our perspective.
Tim Beiko: hyper ledger obviously has been the home of hyper ledger base who and kind of the Foundation that's there to support it, and I think has like really stepped up.
Tim Beiko: Basically, ever since y'all learned about this program, so I think it's it's another kind of obvious one to to to add as part of that.
Tim Beiko: And I think then there's a question of like Okay, so you know in Dallas proposal there's like other organizations that are starting to contribute that have contributed for some time.
Tim Beiko: And you know if and how like you should be included from the get go, I think.
Tim Beiko: I yeah I think there's probably.
Tim Beiko: No other ones today that, like i'm personally really confident and included from the start, well, we can do for sure is you know provide guidelines and like.
Tim Beiko: rough kind of things that that we'd like to see to consider you know, allowing those organizations in the future, to have access to the the withdrawal credentials as well um but it's.
Tim Beiko: yeah I I do think it is like a kind of a higher bar that that those teams need to clear.
Tim Beiko: In rather than just like getting access to the transactions so that's my general kind of view on it i'm not like.
Tim Beiko: And I think today, it makes sense for consensus and he left to be kind of the two that you patrons but i'm not like opposed to having more in the future, as we have teams that are like contributing more towards me.
Tim Beiko: And and and I I do feel from like the conversations i've had with people it's probably on me at this point to make, like a rough you know list of of what that actually means.
Tim Beiko: But yeah you know, like it, I do think you want to require like a significant investment them contributing to main net from an organization before it can be kind of considered a patron and in like the terms of the proposal 3.5.
Gary Schulte: Can I ask a quick question about that does that mean that we would want to have.
Gary Schulte: contributors.
Gary Schulte: that they have to go through a patron to participate in this, we would have to have somebody who wants to onboard and contribute has to go through one of these patronage or organizations.
So.
Tim Beiko: For what exactly.
Tim Beiko: To get access to withdraw credentials to get access to.
Tim Beiko: transaction fees or or.
Gary Schulte: transaction fees, just like the incentive incentivizing.
Tim Beiko: I don't think for transaction fees no like I think, so I think i've been talking with Ryan.
Tim Beiko: Recently rise not rise, it still a maintainer.
Tim Beiko: Not part of consensus has like significant base of experience, if you wanted to come back for six months and work on you know some feature because he thought that was exciting.
Tim Beiko: I hundred percent think he should have access to like his fair share of the transaction fees for that period.
Tim Beiko: without having any affiliation whatsoever for example right, I do think you probably want to get keep on like being a maintainer so somebody who just comes in and it's not yellow maintainer.
Tim Beiko: Under especially today's like definition of maintainer were like a maintainer basically somebody who's contributed a couple of significant things to base you, so I think those should be absolutely eligible, regardless of whether the associated with a patron I think.
Tim Beiko: If you want to get access to the withdrawal credentials, then you know, by definition, you would like become one of these organizations.
Tim Beiko: If there was a case where somebody was like an independent developer and whatnot but otherwise kind of met all the other criteria as we could probably work with them like I don't want to make.
Tim Beiko: The add like an paperwork burden around it it's really more about like kind of the long term, and like strategic investment in basic does that make sense.
Gary Schulte: yeah yeah I wonder if we could just like designate a hyper ledger or someone that would handle the unaffiliated.
Tim Beiko: Right, and I think yeah for transaction fees they.
Tim Beiko: This all assumes that hyper ledger can kind of process, some of the transaction fees and make.
Gary Schulte: distributions both.
Tim Beiko: Both out of like the the wallet of campaigns, but also, there is a 20% pool for hyper ledger which could pay bounties and stuff like that which obviously hyper ledger foundation would need to be to be able to manage.
Grace Hartley: Go okay.
Grace Hartley: So, to be clear to him, for now, this is with consensus, the F and.
Grace Hartley: hyper ledger.
Tim Beiko: Right right like.
Grace Hartley: i'm just i'm just being really clear i'll just say it out loud.
Tim Beiko: I do yeah.
Tim Beiko: Okay.
Grace Hartley: cool and then just looking at the other guiding principles, just to kind of level set on those I think there's.
Grace Hartley: This, I think, number two is fairly straightforward this program offers these to nominate rewards, there are two types of rewards that we talked about later the transaction validator fees and withdraw funds, again, I think.
Grace Hartley: This kind of states again.
Grace Hartley: What we just said and then.
Grace Hartley: The other one is, of course, you know any funds that it could be patriot organization consensus hyper ledger basically either have sole discretion on how to spend those funds assuming it beats the expectations of fun usage, which is from a net but.
Grace Hartley: Are there any.
Grace Hartley: Other concerns or comments on the guiding principles.
Justin Florentine: You know the guiding principles look an awful lot like well a little bit like.
Justin Florentine: The protocol Guild.
Justin Florentine: That yes is putting together.
Justin Florentine: I TIM I don't know if you saw I floated this actually in the.
Justin Florentine: Protocol Guild discord as a potential option I don't know if you had a chance to think about it, but should we be maybe considering a proposal of you know validate or revenue goes into the protocol Guild.
Justin Florentine: And right, since that is an entity that is intended to you know reward people for working on main that protocols.
Justin Florentine: i'd love to hear a way that we could do something like that, instead of reinventing the wheel and and making hyper ledger and this team have to divvy up those revenue fees every so often so.
Justin Florentine: yeah we're ready on that.
Tim Beiko: So I guess just to give context about this um.
Tim Beiko: it's not explicitly that you have launch protocol deals but there's obviously.
Tim Beiko: You have people involved, but there's another initiative in parallel happening to figure out how we can get different dolls and and whatnot to reward contributors to a theorem both obviously kind developers but also researchers teams like celebrity and whatnot and and how we can get.
Tim Beiko: yeah basically bows large projects and ecosystem for pred pledge a portion of their tokens to help fund public goods in the space, I think.
Tim Beiko: So I think the challenge with doing that, if say you wanted to redirect part of that is you're basically diluting yourself, which seems a bit a bit odd because.
Tim Beiko: You know all all the theorem client teams have access to this program and the protocol Guild is aiming to include folks from client teams, but a whole other bunch of folks who work on my core it there and stuff that that.
Tim Beiko: may not be client teams right, so it seems a bit odd that, like you, would you know, for example.
Tim Beiko: You know you send funds there, and like folks from nevermind are on that are on that as well, but then folks from nevermind also have their own programming like they're under no obligation to send phones they're like this is really meant for to find teams themselves, so I you know.
Tim Beiko: I think you could do it, but I don't think it's beneficial to base you to do yeah.
Justin Florentine: right if you imagine a world where all teams did that and the revolutionary effect was you know.
Tim Beiko: it's still it still doesn't.
Tim Beiko: Work because, like say solidity is on there or say you know that, yes, I don't know if we have like an economics research team is on there you're still kind of deluding yourself and also we can't.
Tim Beiko: We don't end like won't have the expectation throat or five teams that they do that with the funds like it's.
Tim Beiko: Great I think it's really up to each team to figure out how they want to to split them.
Tim Beiko: So again, you know no objection if that's something you want it to do, I do think it's not like.
Tim Beiko: kind of economically rational for for for basic to do that if that makes sense.
Justin Florentine: Now here's a yeah.
Grace Hartley: yeah good question.
Grace Hartley: Definitely can't.
Grace Hartley: Think about future ways to work with that, though.
Grace Hartley: cool i'm going to skip I think this is just kind of have to be clear on what the.
Grace Hartley: processes are I don't think there was many changes correct me if i'm wrong and Dan is version from this.
Grace Hartley: But just kind of aligning on verbiage, then the transaction fee, so there are three pools.
Grace Hartley: The node operator.
Grace Hartley: The fun directly to hyper ledger and then 60% to patronage pool.
Grace Hartley: To be clear, i'm not going to get into all the details were there any questions or concerns with how this is currently.
Danno Ferrin: Working on hyper ledger cool we have an enormous ci budget.
Danno Ferrin: So, the reason I wanted at least that much earmarked was for us to pay for the enormous amount of time we're spending on circle ci it's larger than any other project and hyper ledger, so I do think a part of this should be going to pull in basis way on the services we're consuming.
Grace Hartley: yeah yeah I think that's that's.
Grace Hartley: Reasonable enough.
Grace Hartley: And to be clear yet, just like these are separate from any costs that are incurred by consensus, or any other patron.
Grace Hartley: Particularly in the hyper ledger pool.
Grace Hartley: patronage fools something that's just just to be explicitly TIM hinted at or kind of said, but just want to be clear that patronage pool.
Grace Hartley: And the withdrawal key pool will be.
Grace Hartley: determined by maintainer.
Grace Hartley: I think one thing that would be helpful, and we can maybe talk about this in a minute is just being clear that you know it doesn't make sense for any particular patron or any particular maintainer or whatever to be managing that list of containers.
Grace Hartley: For the patronage pool, so I think that would definitely be an ask on the hyper ledger staff side to have someone dedicated to managing that.
Grace Hartley: Just to be clear.
Tim Beiko: One sorry one comment that I definitely want to make on that Diego i'm.
Tim Beiko: i'm sorry I wasn't aware of your contributions on the base you chat like I do think you know this, like the stuff that you mentioned around the the libraries.
Tim Beiko: That were added, even though the classic and the benefit may net I do think that's like a contribution that would be worthy of like you know being counted, so I yeah.
Tim Beiko: I just want to make that fear and and again if there was a world where like etc co op hired a team to focus on a theory of main net and have that you know, like as part of the strategic goals, we could kind of have a discussion about that, but I.
Tim Beiko: I just want to highlight like yeah I guess the difference between the two is that the stuff you've done even though it's not directly like implemented at it from a net as long as it benefits based on mean, I think that should count towards a princess.
Grace Hartley: Go go ahead.
Diego López León: yeah steam the worries no yeah my my my question, there was mostly oriented on about the patronage, for I mean how we are going to hundred other I am it wasn't my intention to.
Diego López León: imply that we want, I mean the corporate team to control some or one of their withdraw a kiss was just what about the access to the patronage pool.
Tim Beiko: Right yeah and that I think definitely should you should you should have access, obviously, assuming you keep contributing stuff that's that's useful to me Matthew.
Diego López León: Thank you.
Grace Hartley: cool good to point out, and then just and just saying this out loud obviously it's offer a 30 minute development work like TIM was just saying it's you know deals work would probably fit that bucket.
Grace Hartley: Then there's distribution of withdrawal keys.
Grace Hartley: So.
Grace Hartley: One just difference between the transaction fees and they maintainer the withdrawal keys is that withdrawal keys distribution is bait proportional distribution is based on the lifetime of over the entire program not just each respective.
Grace Hartley: quarter.
Grace Hartley: Dana go ahead.
Danno Ferrin: So.
Danno Ferrin: This is why.
Danno Ferrin: I think it's important if we're going to get out of me patrons and is to get them as early as possible first off the first trash.
Danno Ferrin: Is five X, the next tranche.
Danno Ferrin: and secondarily if it's cumulative cumulative contribution you know someone comes in, and the third tranche is going to be, you know.
Danno Ferrin: Can consensus become a triple versus that distribution there, so I mean if if we're going to have people come in late this feels a bit you know dis incentivizing them because they're going to have like a one sixth claim on any of the tools and there's you know, like.
Danno Ferrin: yeah what a validators so I says.
Danno Ferrin: If that's the official position, then this I think she'd be revisited to be a more equitable arrangement.
Tim Beiko: Right I I see what you're saying I think two thoughts on that one is, I do think it's worth like the first withdrawal with the first, which are all key distribution is not going to happen until the end of this year, basically when Shanghai happens.
Tim Beiko: And so I think there is time to work with other organizations that would want to be included That said, I don't think I would.
Tim Beiko: allow any org that's not a maintainer and base you prior to the program being announced to be part of the first kind of distribution so like.
Tim Beiko: Obviously, you know that oh your employer and, like other oryx who, who are already contributing i'm happy to like.
Tim Beiko: help make sure that if you do want to you know, invest in this and kind of be part of it.
Tim Beiko: you're not like missing the first tranche, so I yeah that makes sense again caveat is like somebody new that comes in, I think they should probably missed the first tranche, and we can get them on for a second one.
Tim Beiko: I also think, by definition, like it's it's going to take time for somebody like some entity to go from like having access to just the transaction fees to having access to the withdrawal credentials like.
Tim Beiko: Just if we expect them to show and have shown like significant support that takes a while I do think we should probably like back wait like counter your contributions from the start, not from when you become part of the patrons if that makes sense, so say you know, for example.
Tim Beiko: i'll take i'll take strolled labs as an example that no but say, for whatever reason you didn't make the first distribution, but you made the second one, I would still count your contributions during that first period.
Tim Beiko: Because otherwise I don't think you can reconcile if you do have some sort of best in your time component for people to become like for these organizations to be.
Tim Beiko: To have access to the withdrawal keys I just think it's fair to like reward them from the time they started contributing um yeah so those would be my two comments, but definitely agree that, like for folks who are here today and who who think they.
Tim Beiko: would like to be part of the first batch.
Tim Beiko: We can prioritize and try to make it happen.
Danno Ferrin: It be like say to pass through periods, because it gets really compounding your the end I mean.
Danno Ferrin: You know we're talking about, not a question here again but.
Tim Beiko: Right right so so the trenches.
Tim Beiko: it's yeah.
Danno Ferrin: So when I was coming in new we're looking for new people coming in means they may be too far down the road be concerned about it.
Tim Beiko: But I didn't I think like I don't know I would tend to count like from when they started having access to the transaction fees.
Tim Beiko: All the way to like when did you realize their first like period if that makes sense, so like.
Tim Beiko: For example, again i'll take like this will not be example like he say you didn't make the first batch but then you make the second one, you would definitely have counted for like the pre first batch period and the second.
Tim Beiko: Even though you just gotta be the second something like that right like you.
Tim Beiko: I don't think we discount your contributions, trying to be like.
Grace Hartley: activated yeah.
Grace Hartley: So you're saying TIM like you know your maintainer pure like maintainer count counts towards you know.
Assuming.
Tim Beiko: Assuming they're contributing to me nuts, but like from the first.
Tim Beiko: moment you've received a share of the transaction.
Tim Beiko: fees, I think, is when we should start completely.
Grace Hartley: maintainer accounts can count.
yeah.
Grace Hartley: yeah just want to make sure I was clear yeah.
Grace Hartley: cool Okay, we only have three minutes left I don't.
Grace Hartley: Think there's anything I think there was drawing credentials, you know it's just you know that could set this can liquidate i'm sure i've been 30 minutes so.
Grace Hartley: And I brought her in and whoever another patron opposition to the same, but there are some consequences towards liquidating just calling it out.
Grace Hartley: I think there are some next step if the seems like we have general alignment on this, then I think there are a couple of next steps to call that one.
Grace Hartley: which was him just writing up the like baseline that the guidelines for a net new organization coming in, which I think he's committed to and is comfortable doing, I think there then probably a handful of requests for hyper ledger.
Grace Hartley: One is you know, being able to be the.
Grace Hartley: One hold the keys to convey receive the funds and then distribute them out.
Grace Hartley: Three is if they can dedicate someone for their staff to help manage the program from their side and particularly.
Grace Hartley: being responsible for maintaining the basic main list.
Grace Hartley: And then there's probably one or I have it written down only.
Grace Hartley: Does it do those first few sound right.
Daniela Barbosa: Those three.
Grace Hartley: Just three sound right sorry.
Grace Hartley: Let me pull up on, I had it written down somewhere, so I want to just make sure that's clear.
Grace Hartley: I think.
Grace Hartley: And then I think actually the fourth one is just hyper ledger being able to commit to using the fun solely for basically we network, I know it's a part of the agreement, but I don't know if we've been explicit on that just yet.
Grace Hartley: i'm happy to write these down to in the news.
huh.
Grace Hartley: But yeah, but I just want to make sure that's pretty cool Am I missing or those reasonable and accepts obviously will ask I know Danielle it'll take a little time a couple weeks i'm sure to come back and be able to save Roger can meet those items.
Daniela Barbosa: But uh well i'm hoping that'll be a little bit faster and TIM, I do have a follow up with you and just to let everybody know we are.
Daniela Barbosa: Looking to bring in you know some Technical Assistant you know with staff new staff member that will be able to assist with some of these technical requirements around keys, and such so we're wrapping up some.
Tim Beiko: yeah I do think like of all the things Ray said, like the even if you're not ready to do it, but having the thumbs up that hyper ledger can actually custody and distribute crypto.
Tim Beiko: To me, that seems like the only thing where everything can basically fall apart like if that's if that's not if that wasn't true.
Tim Beiko: We would just need to find another organization, who can kind of have that role, and I think that's like much, much harder and everything else seems like a bit easier at the patch if if, for whatever reason it doesn't work out.
Tim Beiko: So I think if there's one thing to prioritize it would be just seeing if that's technically and like corporate operationally manageable.
Tim Beiko: And, and if it is like.
Tim Beiko: I think we're approaching something pretty cool um yeah.
Grace Hartley: I think i'll just say so, if we can get that the organization those two kind of for those five, I guess, one for you, for for 10 yella.
Grace Hartley: Items resolve the next couple weeks.
Grace Hartley: There is obviously i'm just going to transparently like obviously this has to go through all the organizations legal parties.
Grace Hartley: So I think this is the right spirit we will be transparent in that process, but just to be really clear that that is also a hurdle.
Daniela Barbosa: yeah just.
Grace Hartley: Was it with the group that that will have to happen to.
Daniela Barbosa: yeah and i'll just reiterate again when I said earlier, Tim you're on the call, but that the these discussions have been going on our last discussion last week was with me, you are lf legal staff and the theory and foundation, there was no other parties there.
Tim Beiko: yeah.
Tim Beiko: There was a call yeah yeah yeah I just want to be clear that.
Daniela Barbosa: The hyper ledger are working on these things directly.
Tim Beiko: yeah yeah and we're happy like I mean to just give general obviously if we're not pitchers politicians lawyers, but we can give general guidance that how we think of just these things from a legal and operational perspective at the yes and.
Tim Beiko: yeah hopefully help lead you down the right, the right path.
Grace Hartley: cool.
yeah.
Grace Hartley: We are two minutes over to him really sorry to make you.
Grace Hartley: Know we're still on your run I apologize.
Grace Hartley: We I will put these notes in I have tried to capture everything, but please feel free to anyone add in or comments that I.
Grace Hartley: misrepresented something, but I think, maybe a good benchmark is.
Grace Hartley: If we could have those items, or at least, as you said, into a field we told crypto the organization requirements by the next contributor call, then we can kind of.
Grace Hartley: What is that is that.
Grace Hartley: it's two weeks from now two weeks, not this exact time two weeks, this idea.
Tim Beiko: Two weeks one hour ago is already.
Grace Hartley: Know two weeks it's America, Asia friendly time so it's like it's I will send it to you, I think.
Tim Beiko: If you can send me a calendar invite.
Danno Ferrin: Like seven or eight in the morning, your time.
Grace Hartley: yeah it's a little early.
Tim Beiko: that's fine I just need to know if it's seven or.
Grace Hartley: 888 years.
Grace Hartley: uh.
Grace Hartley: i'll add you to it now just.
Tim Beiko: awesome thanks.
Grace Hartley: And then we will, I think, just yeah I think a good deadline is is just two weeks from now to be able to have a go no go have of those items at the latest Sally your hands up.
Sally MacFarlane: On a different topic on the agenda, there was an appoint about the hospital agenda chat task close being close to making a decision there any update.
Grace Hartley: There is, I drafted the proposal to move discord i've circulated with the task force, we have a meeting Wednesday to.
Grace Hartley: Hopefully, agree to it.
Grace Hartley: But that is the current proposals to move all of hyper ledger to discord, we are not that isn't the final decision, but that is proposal that the team is looking at, but it's Wednesday, the proposals drafted the migration plan is proposed as well, so.
Grace Hartley: Good question.
Daniela Barbosa: we're all very eagerly awaiting the session.
Ry Jones: I spent hours, this weekend.
Ry Jones: trying to figure out how to programmatically make stickers so.
Ry Jones: i'm really looking forward to it.
Sally MacFarlane: It gets difficult.
Ry Jones: yeah.
Ry Jones: jump on the discord and i'll show them to you i'll put some in the base your channel on discord.
Daniela Barbosa: I do need to run so i'm going to go.
Grace Hartley: Thanks i'll.
Grace Hartley: shoot it thanks Daniela will share notes, as I said, i'll just share my screen, so it wasn't able to get them up, while we were going so we'll share, and we will talk again soon.
Grace Hartley: I oh.
Thanks.
Danno Ferrin: Thanks thanks.
Diego López León: bye Thank you.