Rai: morning.
Gary Schulte: we're already recording, unfortunately.
Rai: well.
You would.
Rai: say my secret for later.
Okay.
Rai: yeah.
Rai: been.
Gary Schulte: In Central time zone, this is early.
Rai: hey okay.
Rai: What time did you wake up you got kids.
Gary Schulte: uh he usually sometime in the sixes will come get me if i'm not already up usually the early six o'clock time range.
Rai: Okay, but when you were 28 what time did you wake up.
Gary Schulte: When I was 28 time to wake up.
Gary Schulte: And that was 20 years ago.
Gary Schulte: Almost 20 years ago 18 years ago.
Gary Schulte: Good morning, everybody.
Danno Ferrin: Good morning.
Danno Ferrin: Yes, grace gonna be on.
Danno Ferrin: One that's fine swan should be here to this is the time he wanted.
Danno Ferrin: i'm not camera ready so i'm going to be keeping my camera off.
Danno Ferrin: it's literally on a between Christmas and New year's day.
Gary Schulte: yeah understood yeah it's it's still early here too it's just a it seems weird to have a screen and nothing but but no cameras so turn mine on anyway.
Danno Ferrin: yeah we do it at my job, all the time I don't get why the cameras, but they do.
Gary Schulte: there's grace.
Grace Hartley: yeah yes right what's going on.
How are you.
Rai: Good how many years, have you met yet.
Grace Hartley: yeah that's true have you here sorry everything's.
Good.
Rai: Austin.
Rai: Remember back in New York in May.
Grace Hartley: Oh.
Grace Hartley: yeah.
Rai: I remember, I still deciding where we want to get a.
Grace Hartley: that's awesome yeah we know what i'm seeing.
and
Rai: He just didn't.
Justin Florentine: See.
Grace Hartley: morning thanks for joining guys.
Justin Florentine: mm hmm.
Justin Florentine: yeah.
Danno Ferrin: morning.
Gary Schulte: I don't know David.
Danno Ferrin: David is a hyper ledger staff.
David Boswell: Okay i'm gonna be muted my dog is probably going to be barking so I just listened to them.
Justin Florentine: Okay well.
Gary Schulte: Welcome call what kind of dog.
David Boswell: spaniel who is very hungry and ready for a walk right around now.
Gary Schulte: Nice okay.
Gary Schulte: cool.
Gary Schulte: To went away for one he's.
Danno Ferrin: Here he's just.
Gary Schulte: Other ego.
Danno Ferrin: Is audio is coming online.
cool.
Grace Hartley: Joining.
Gary Schulte: agree.
All right.
Grace Hartley: i'm thinking kick off.
Grace Hartley: i'm pleasantly surprised by the number of people, we have thanks everyone for being on December 30 sure y'all want to spend some time with your family.
Grace Hartley: We have an hour here, this is kind of a continuation of the call we had last week.
Grace Hartley: Around the ETF incentive Program.
Grace Hartley: i'll pull up the agenda here.
just looking.
At.
Grace Hartley: Well, it has 2022 agendas that's we don't need that just yet just for reference dropping the link in the chat from the call from last week, where we had took a bunch of notes so just if you are not there or want to engage there.
Grace Hartley: Are reference back that's where they are the agenda for this call today is the one I just posted to kick off probably worth 13 with housekeeping.
Grace Hartley: antitrust notice you please review that.
Grace Hartley: That just fyi obviously needs already being recorded.
Grace Hartley: If you do don't want to be on a recording Please go ahead and drop, then please mute speaking, and then we like to use the raise hand feature as we can just to make sure we're facilitate the conversation with group so that would be pretty.
Grace Hartley: cool so.
Grace Hartley: I think what we were.
Grace Hartley: proposed agenda.
Grace Hartley: For this call is kind of two parts.
Grace Hartley: One is maybe the first 30 minutes or so we'll see what we do kind of talking about the incentive program and a few proposals ideas around around that and then the second part is just kind of basic maintainer like progress Community concerns and.
Grace Hartley: and addressing that as well.
Grace Hartley: First of all, does that sound all right does anyone have anything to add or change.
Grace Hartley: Okay, so we will do that and see how it goes.
Grace Hartley: And then, but we'll kick off with the incentive program so just, I guess, maybe a 32nd reminder of what you talked about even just to refresh myself.
Grace Hartley: Essentially, the ef during foundation is.
Grace Hartley: Creating this incentive program for your clients to.
Grace Hartley: Basically, you know certain hit certain milestones based on their performance and they're incentivizing it through.
Grace Hartley: Money basically.
Grace Hartley: Three so we're here today to just kind of so you kind of threw out a few ideas around you know what the incentive program looks like last time we're not going to go through all that you go back and look at the recording.
Grace Hartley: But today I just wanted to kind of kick off the wheels turning on what what could be you know kind of structure for hyper ledger base you to manage its own incentive program and go from there that's about right anything I missed.
Gary Schulte: sounds good cool.
Grace Hartley: So maybe i'll let Gary you kick off, I know you have kind of a few ideas or.
yeah.
Grace Hartley: yeah.
Grace Hartley: yeah and.
Grace Hartley: Discussions around what what could be maybe a basic hour or something like that maybe you just give the idea overview and then talk about kind of some things were thrown out as options.
Gary Schulte: yeah so I threw a link to hacking be in chat here just for some talking points I had some conversations with Brian some conversations with TIM and just a little bit of research.
Gary Schulte: On what rocket pool is doing with their trust lists sticking I do want to start, though I mentioned at the beginning that.
Gary Schulte: The.
Gary Schulte: The grant program or the validate validator reward program whatever the F, is calling it I forget this is.
Gary Schulte: Just to remind you this isn't entirely encumbered grant this there's not like they're giving us a pile of money and saying hey go do this, what they're doing is they're giving us an incentive to.
Gary Schulte: participate and be a viable merge client and participate in merge consensus post merge with base who specifically so there's no there's no money that's actually given to us.
Gary Schulte: Except that way will perform these duties as validators on the network for 144 validator stakes, and they will be incrementally.
Gary Schulte: We will incrementally invest into them as we move through the program I wish TIM was going to be able to be on the call asked if he could but.
Gary Schulte: he's unfortunate he's on a plane.
Gary Schulte: I think if I did my arithmetic correctly, I think that the full.
Gary Schulte: stake vests over a period of six years, and I think each 12 month.
Gary Schulte: calendar.
Gary Schulte: cycle vests equally in every month, so like if they're say the first year first calendar year that the program is active there would be.
Gary Schulte: one sixth of the hundred 44 validators that would invest every month I forget the exact arithmetic I don't want to do quick arithmetic on the phone, but I don't think it quite adds up to something divisible by 12 but we'll let them do the logistics of that.
Gary Schulte: Anyway, point being this isn't encumbered grant so this isn't this isn't a pile of money that we can just kind of distribute so.
Gary Schulte: That says.
Rai: When withdrawals enabled right.
Gary Schulte: What was that again.
Rai: It starts when withdrawals are enabled.
Gary Schulte: Well yeah when withdrawals are enabled.
Gary Schulte: I think that's when the vesting begins yeah you're right.
yeah.
Justin Florentine: Right.
Justin Florentine: Go ahead it's it's even then, if there's a fall off right it's only partially.
Gary Schulte: accepted there's a there's a.
Gary Schulte: An annual there's an annual schedule once vesting does begin once vesting starts within a calendar your that whole that first partial calendar year is going to be an entire calendar year like kind of with an accelerated vesting for that first.
Gary Schulte: year during that window.
Gary Schulte: That aside, i'm going to go ahead and pull up that had come to you that I just linked.
Gary Schulte: So.
Gary Schulte: I think what we can do my proposal here i'm just going to go ahead and and and start from the bottom and work my way up my my proposal is that we would token is the entire grant and the entire encumbered grant.
Gary Schulte: And that that token ization would.
Gary Schulte: be a an essence a share in the basic Dow and the base who doubt would be a.
Gary Schulte: Ideally it's going to be an autonomous TAO that can carry out the will of votes, without any.
Gary Schulte: Any intervention any any manual trustee or executor necessary to make it work.
Gary Schulte: But basically, if we token is the entire grant all of the future awards would be token, as well as well as transaction fees would go to the same base who doubt contract that would.
Gary Schulte: Probably on a on a semi.
Gary Schulte: monthly basis would token is its treasury, that is not encumbered as well with a fixed peg to a theorem and then the.
Gary Schulte: that the basic tokens, so to speak, would be voting shares in the Dow and then that is pretty much as far as I wanted to get with it because I think that there's a lot of.
Gary Schulte: A lot of moving parts that need to be sorted out and some consensus needs to be generated about what what the program how the program perform and what we would expect of it.
Gary Schulte: But I think that, in terms of our ability to be fair and equitable if we were able to to organize the entire encumbered grant as well as all future rewards, then we can fairly and equitably distribute.
Gary Schulte: These funds in a retroactive fashion, as we see fit right that's that's come up with political consensus about that how we want to.
Gary Schulte: reserve and set aside some of this encumbered grid to account for the work that's gone into basic to get basic to the point where it can.
Gary Schulte: contribute and merge consensus, you know just the fact that it exists means that there are a lot of work was done long in advance to to enable us to pivot to do.
Gary Schulte: The merge consensus so i'm just go to the bullet points.
Justin Florentine: Before we.
Justin Florentine: Before we start with that Dan has got his hand up.
Gary Schulte: Oh yeah go ahead, sorry i'm, on the other, window, so I don't see it.
Gary Schulte: Go ahead and we're gonna do.
Justin Florentine: That yeah.
Danno Ferrin: yeah I did a quick read through this and there's.
Danno Ferrin: two very important things that I don't think are addressed here.
Danno Ferrin: One who runs the.
Danno Ferrin: notes I don't think there's consensus on that yet.
Danno Ferrin: Okay, and the second one is, I have a concern about.
Danno Ferrin: A simple steak What if someone has a supermajority.
Danno Ferrin: If someone has a super majority in a doubt they control it, it can destroy it.
Danno Ferrin: So, as far as the voting stuff I don't think a straight.
Danno Ferrin: Majority rules, though, is going to work and third minor point is i'm not sure we should be looking backwards, I think we should be looking entirely forward because it's a forward looking incentive so that's that's a third minor point but that's less important than the first two.
Gary Schulte: I think that's fair, I mean I don't have any problems with that, I think, though, that.
Gary Schulte: I think it would be equitable to to recognize the contributions of basic contributors to make us able to participate, to begin with, but you know that's not it's not anything that I feel incredibly firmly about because i'm not in that crowd I think I mean you know it's it's.
Gary Schulte: I don't have it, I don't have a dog in that fight, so to speak.
Gary Schulte: it's interesting that you're you are talking about running the nodes themselves also the quadrant I think we could do quadratic voting on a doubt I don't I don't see any problem with that I don't think a supermajority yeah.
Gary Schulte: I think we can get around that pretty easily with with pretty well.
Gary Schulte: trodden ground with quadratic voting.
Rai: is then consensus considered like of consensus had some of the tokens, for example, and they considered one entity, even if they have even if they like employ.
Rai: Multiple developers to work on basal like it's not exactly because voting is a little bit more difficult when you consider like a corporate entity.
Gary Schulte: Right.
Rai: Because it might be the opinions are multiple people.
Gary Schulte: I think I would i'd like to like just talk about the technical.
Gary Schulte: aspect of the proposal first and then we can try to.
Gary Schulte: arrive at a political will, you know just.
Gary Schulte: Just the logistics of it i'd kind of like to go through gracie handle.
Grace Hartley: If you're going to address this i'll ask the.
Grace Hartley: dumb question and i'm sure everyone else has the answer to what is quadratic voting.
Gary Schulte: um.
Grace Hartley: What is that.
Gary Schulte: yeah quadratic voting is it's not gosh I don't have a good high level definition.
Of a quadratic moodle for.
Rai: Do it so basically it's a voting system, where each subsequent vote by you know the same entity, like me, for example.
Rai: requires an increasing number of let's say like you know vote point to carry out so that way it doesn't scale linearly but it gets more and more difficult for me to have an.
Rai: More incremental influence over the vote, and what that does is that it kind of causes this balance, where.
Rai: You know all else equal you would want more broad participation by many people because their first first votes are relatively cheap to cast then like you know, having one person who you know really say having fewer people that agree on something that can vote more.
Gary Schulte: yeah get coin matching grants are a great example in the wild of doing quadratic voting were your initial initial votes, so to speak, have have more more more weight and the more votes cast on a particular item, the less value that actually adds to your overall vote tally.
Gary Schulte: To go so super majority of issues.
Danno Ferrin: But it's still possible for one entity to have enough votes that literally everyone else belts against the proposal and that one is the votes for it and it still carries.
Gary Schulte: I think it would depend on the on the the quadratic formula specifically I would probably do some looking into what get coins has done with their matching rounds.
Rai: Because if it is possible.
Rai: yeah it's.
Gary Schulte: It has to that kind of massive supermajority that I mean you really have to have like 99.9% of all the votes to really.
Gary Schulte: be able to silence everybody else.
Gary Schulte: I mean it depends on the math but.
Justin Florentine: Okay.
Danno Ferrin: So let's move on from voting and, like the other technical points.
Gary Schulte: yeah The other point being running validator nodes I kind of had presumed to from the from our call last time I didn't look terribly close into the notion of doing.
Gary Schulte: More than a single entity we're running validator stakes, because it didn't seem like on the last call that there was interest in doing that.
Gary Schulte: We can we can go ahead and we can talk about that as as an option as well, I think there's there's definitely ways that we could do that there's a little bit of.
Gary Schulte: Coordination that needs to happen with validator keys because there's some some risk involved there.
Gary Schulte: In terms of you know you need to make sure that you're doing a good job you don't get slashed there's no surround votes all that different stuff and becomes a little more difficult when you have multiple entities that are validating we could potentially step on each other's toes and.
Gary Schulte: That could be a problem if that's something that we want to do, though, that's we can definitely sort that out there's there's lots of examples of ways that we can we can do multiple entities validating this entire set of keys an easy way to do that would be to to break it up into trenches.
Gary Schulte: I think there's nine.
Gary Schulte: Nine blocks of 16 is how we had approached this to to run validators just across different EC two instances, so to speak, or different different nodes.
Gary Schulte: So it would make a logical partition just it would be handy to break things up into 16 validator chunks if we wanted to have multiple entities doing this.
Justin Florentine: So before we go down that path, though i'm unclear as to whether or not he is interested in that.
Justin Florentine: Like I think that's kind of a question that we really have to make sure that they're willing to you know spread those validator keys around or if they really intending one entity to manage the whole thing I don't see why they'd have a problem with it, but.
Gary Schulte: I think the issue is coordination because they want to communicate those keys to a single entity, rather than like sharing it amongst a collection of people.
Gary Schulte: I think that I think that would be a coordination point.
Gary Schulte: we'd have to sort out.
Danno Ferrin: Okay, so I mean consensus had four months to review this before going public with it, you know why not spend time seeing of hyper ledger could be the one that could hold that validators and run them.
Gary Schulte: I don't know where four months came from, we definitely have not had four months to look at this.
Danno Ferrin: I heard that they were talking with them so geeta for four months before this month public.
Gary Schulte: can look back and see when when I first heard about it, I think I first heard about it.
Danno Ferrin: We need at least more than you know, four days before Christmas break to fully evaluate it.
Danno Ferrin: yeah whether it's a few weeks or whatever.
Danno Ferrin: yeah um so so I did ask the hyper ledger staff, if this was even a remote possibility and nobody's around that.
Danno Ferrin: That you.
Danno Ferrin: Get the answers from to get it from.
Danno Ferrin: So I think that is one thing we should consider is.
Danno Ferrin: can't have hyper ledger run it, but we can't get that answer until people are back from Christmas break and the answer has been no Daniela has their hands up.
Daniela Barbosa: That is correct, and so we have had very quick conversations with some folks on our side, I also did have a conversation with him on Monday, David boswell and I had a call with Timothy.
Daniela Barbosa: On Monday night before he started traveling and moving around and to answer your question and I won't put you know.
Daniela Barbosa: Work words in tim's mouth justin but they they would be interested in in figuring this out, but to gary's point it's really you know.
Daniela Barbosa: I think what he called it was I mean look at my notes here it's you know, accountability and you know, there has to be a central point of it so i've i've already.
Daniela Barbosa: yeah so next week, I do have a call with our Linux foundation legal team, this is, you know, obviously this is an investment cause, you know issue and i'm very interested in understanding the cost of running these nodes.
Daniela Barbosa: which was on the agenda today as well, so that we have some data that I can go back and talk about it with legal first and then obviously this is also a discussion, probably for my Governing Board for the hyper ledger foundation Governing Board immediately after.
Gary Schulte: Yes, yeah interestingly, and I don't want to make this to tactical or logistical but.
Gary Schulte: The longer that we take to to do this there's that much time that you know we're basically missing out on the validation rewards and.
Gary Schulte: pushing the timeline a little further out i'm wondering what take a room temperature on.
Gary Schulte: proceeding with infrastructure that consensus has in place to start the program and then with the expectation that as we designed the program we can disseminate these validator.
Gary Schulte: keys to validators who want to participate.
Gary Schulte: and
Rai: we're talking about we're talking about who's going to run the validators right.
Rai: Yes, so maybe harebrained idea but hear me out.
Rai: So typically like these decentralized staking protocols are used primarily when you don't have 30 to eat steak but, in a sense, they can also be used as a staking as a service So what if we exited.
Rai: The What if we had one entity, you know, whoever we delegate to they have to validate the biggest value piece on the E, F.
Rai: You know their job is simply to and the Dow can decide who misses on each validator like each i'll do it gets a lot to essentially exit that and then re enter the queue.
Rai: or exit that and then with the East just actually put that in rocket fuel, and so it gets entered by something that you know they trust, and we can choose which thinking protocol, we trust, but that way we kind of abstract away and don't need to deal with the running of the nodes ourselves.
Gary Schulte: Well, the point, the point of the grant is to run the nodes ourselves they don't want to just say hey here's some money it's like they want to have must have some skin in the game.
Gary Schulte: We need to run our client, we need a basic needs to be the execution engine, they want to incentivize a variety of consensus engines.
Rai: Right.
Gary Schulte: And it isn't really just about you know how can we equitably share a grant this is about, proving that basically was a solid execution engine post merge.
Gary Schulte: Secondly, I think I don't want to involve I personally don't want to involve rocket pool I did consider like you know, maybe rocket fuel can be part of the solution, but I mean they're they're token omics in the bond, you have to buy with our PL and then this the just.
Rai: yeah it was this.
Rai: Gal I haven't looked into it.
Gary Schulte: yeah but yeah yeah.
Gary Schulte: it's it's it's cool I appreciate the work, but I don't think that we want to encumber this with that.
Danno Ferrin: The answer Daniela point what's the ballpark for what it takes to run a node.
i'm.
Gary Schulte: Pre merge it doesn't take a whole lot.
Gary Schulte: I mean you could do it on a graph on instance, you know, an arm 60, for instance, if it's not it does not take a lot it's the consensus portion of the node is what.
Gary Schulte: is probably what would start getting more expensive post merge, but right now largely you can run a consensus node on the same specs you can run a main net base who note on which is.
Gary Schulte: justin Do you remember what we're doing for the an easy to instance for that it's basically for cpu.
Justin Florentine: don't look it up.
Gary Schulte: yeah I think I think we're running three excel.
Danno Ferrin: three.
Gary Schulte: Not three excel excel running an excel.
Danno Ferrin: That sounds like a single alexa.
Gary Schulte: yeah I believe so.
Danno Ferrin: And that's with envy me.
Gary Schulte: Yes, there.
Danno Ferrin: Are there any other expenses options, we need to turn on into it.
Gary Schulte: No, not that i'm aware of no.
Danno Ferrin: Because you leave you'll need about a terabyte to two.
Danno Ferrin: terabytes of envy me data right.
Gary Schulte: yeah yeah.
Danno Ferrin: And how much data goes through, based on you know.
Danno Ferrin: Historical values what's the data load.
Gary Schulte: based on historical vice, I mean we'd have we'd have to look at your phone I wasn't thinking that we were going to be dead dead and it wasn't prepared for the call to be about disseminating you know.
Gary Schulte: validate or responsibility so.
Danno Ferrin: i'm not roster runny nose, was the first point on the incentive Program.
Gary Schulte: yeah I didn't write down sorry.
Grace Hartley: And we end up going.
For.
Grace Hartley: That Okay, I know I think.
Grace Hartley: The so a couple questions I think one, I think we did.
Grace Hartley: You know, you can come back to that you know it's Christmas so.
Grace Hartley: A lot of people have been off, but I think and it's makes sense, I think one point you made Gary, I just wanted to clarify is what it takes to run a note pre marriage is easier than post merge.
Grace Hartley: But, would we as a Community, want to consider someone who only wants to run a pre merge, just to be clear.
Gary Schulte: yeah I think I think it's just kind of an artifact of where we are in a theorem that we would be running these nodes.
Gary Schulte: Pretty merge, because the point of the program is to do post merge support because basically as an execution client.
Gary Schulte: Is what what we're what the grant is about and basis, not being used as an execution client pre merge it's only post merge it just happens to be you know.
Gary Schulte: happens to be an eighth one node that the beacon beacon chain can use for for information on deposit contracts and so forth, so it's really not a part, not much of a part of the consensus currently it's only really only going to become.
Gary Schulte: More involved that interaction between the consensus and execution clients really only going to start to.
Gary Schulte: exist, so to speak, post merge.
Grace Hartley: So.
Grace Hartley: Sorry i'm not sure I follow, so it makes sense that it's testing the two, and then the post merge and that's and basically been execution client that that all makes sense sorry i'm being a little slow.
Grace Hartley: And I think seven it but.
Grace Hartley: So are we saying we'd be okay, with an organization running just a node pre merge and getting.
Grace Hartley: So let's say hyper ledger says we can't do the post merge because of X y&z you know, whatever just you know.
Gary Schulte: yeah merges postcard just table stakes, I think, if you can't post merge you shouldn't bother.
Grace Hartley: it's not worth it, yes that's what I yeah.
Grace Hartley: Like i'm like if we're just to be clear that's not.
Grace Hartley: You know, we want.
Grace Hartley: Whoever it is to be able to do both that like, and I think that's a good decision for this group to make that.
Grace Hartley: Does that make sense to everyone, I just wanted to clarify that because I was not 100%.
Gary Schulte: agree.
Danno Ferrin: If you're gonna run a note, it should be long term, I agree with that sentiment.
Danno Ferrin: Okay i'm just gonna.
Grace Hartley: Put that down and then decision just I guess to logistics just.
Grace Hartley: We I am taking notes in the wiki page and get some stuff so we'll share that with afterwards.
Grace Hartley: I think that was my only other question it looks like devin has his hand up go ahead Devon.
Devon Artis: hey guys I door is my first time here i'm questions Preston from running a validated know what each person or entity, who runs about the data know needs to 32 feet, plus the cost of running the validated or.
Gary Schulte: The 32 meters being supplied by the ef, I think, though, I think we should have I personally think that there should be some something at stake for whoever wants to run a validator node just so that that it's not.
Gary Schulte: Just so that there's an additional incentive to.
Gary Schulte: To do a good job of validating and not just show up and be like a yeah sorry I let the let the note down into got slashed or whatever you know.
Gary Schulte: I think that it would be wise to have some additional bond of some sort to ensure that whomever is whomever are validators are have something at stake okay.
Devon Artis: Is there a point of how much they would have it had to have it state.
Gary Schulte: I don't know that's just that's my opinion right now we haven't really arrived at that yet.
Gary Schulte: meet your needs will either.
Rai: You don't need to add the complexity of separate bond you could also just security against future earnings.
Gary Schulte: mean it is implicitly security guess.
Like.
Gary Schulte: yeah I mean that's that will be an interesting.
Gary Schulte: An interesting mechanism to use if there was a like a genesis distribution of this basic theoretical basis token that represents the encumbered grant that would be the easiest way to.
Gary Schulte: tap something at stake, you know what your steak is is your your token.
Gary Schulte: encumbered steak So if you do a bad job and you get slashed what actually gets slashed is your your ownership of those basic tokens, so to speak.
Gary Schulte: is maintained just straight up you make make a one to one peg between basic token and whatever the encumbered eighth is now that might be a strong enough incentive, a strong enough.
Gary Schulte: skin in the game, so to speak, to make sure that validators are doing a good job, since it's no longer theoretical at that point.
Devon Artis: Right, thank you.
Gary Schulte: I think.
Gary Schulte: justin put T three XL and I believe the him to we're using him to storage right now and we end up with the amount of storage we allocate we end up with the highest number of I OPS that that storage class can use if that'll help with costing.
Justin Florentine: yeah I was looking at a may not full node and that was eight terabytes.
Gary Schulte: yeah and we can certainly get by with less storage, especially if we are using bonds I.
Gary Schulte: which I think that's kind of one of the use cases we're hoping to support post merge is lightweight storage.
Gary Schulte: For an execution client so.
Gary Schulte: bonds, I note would presumably use a lot less.
Gary Schulte: storage space and I OPS.
Justin Florentine: yeah this this particular one that i'm looking at, for me, that is 16,000 our House.
Gary Schulte: What do you have creams mean that bonds I don't.
Justin Florentine: know, but I can find inner.
Gary Schulte: Peace, you have your grace, you have your hand up because.
Grace Hartley: yeah I think the white guys are looking at kind of what I think just will take the action of coming back and putting together the detailed requirements for running a note and just an pre and post merger, we can just get that in a document does that sound all right.
Grace Hartley: Just because I.
Grace Hartley: Know that's important to the Group and then, but one thing I think we haven't just wanting to addresses you know it.
Grace Hartley: felt like so there's obviously lots of hardware requirements there's you know technical requirements we haven't talked about expertise of the team and the person running it let's say and there's I mean I and just to be explicit.
Grace Hartley: Like I couldn't run about it or note that would be bad you know, but so, but so when we're looking at the requirements it shouldn't just be.
Grace Hartley: There should be a technical element of course and there's requirements just you know, but it also should be.
Grace Hartley: What is the skill level or what are the expertise of the person or people running it organizations running it that should they should have as well, I just don't think we've said that explicitly just yet, and I just wanted to be clear that everyone was on the same page with that as well.
Gary Schulte: it's a really good point I mean somebody yeah that's a very good point the, this is not.
Grace Hartley: There is knowledge like we can come together and work with it, with everyone to and say you know we would expect the proof people were running it to have this type of experience with.
Grace Hartley: This you know you know, whatever their skill set is just because that's you know, obviously just a huge part of it to have just you know people being knowledgeable writing it too.
Grace Hartley: So just want to.
Grace Hartley: Make sure that's really clear.
Grace Hartley: Just you know set up the.
Grace Hartley: Computer and have certain hardware and then you know.
Grace Hartley: baseline level that would be.
Gary Schulte: Reading yeah there's there's there's a lot of activities that need yeah.
Gary Schulte: yeah forks and things that need to be.
Gary Schulte: The care and feeding that need to happen.
Grace Hartley: Yes, yes, I just want to be explicit about that too, because we just had just mentioned that okay yeah, but we can take that away and.
Grace Hartley: But just want to make sure that was clear looks like.
Grace Hartley: And then I know we wanted to kind of get to basic Community kind of just discussion generally.
Grace Hartley: So what i'm.
Grace Hartley: So I do we want to continue this conversation, or do we want to.
Grace Hartley: I guess maybe we'll wrap it up what Devon answer his question and then we'll see what other items are put that we can can move on.
Devon Artis: i'm just picking up on what you were saying about it because that's another cost i'm now i'm running about data know either the person if they're putting a stake in top of paying for the.
Devon Artis: hardware in the cloud you still need that expertise to run the know which would either be you have to know how to do itself or you have to pay a system admin who actually have experienced the blockchain validated nodes.
Devon Artis: So that's a big point.
Gary Schulte: yeah I think that's fair.
Gary Schulte: last thing I want to say i've got my hand up just because i'm going to like see conversation flow back to grace.
Gary Schulte: The one thing I want to point out is that the the perfect is going to be the enemy of the good here if we.
Gary Schulte: spend all of our time coming up with a structure and and Dow and smart contracts and.
Gary Schulte: autonomous execution and all of this stuff it's going to be well into 2022 before we're even able to start doing this, so I think that we should probably approach this from.
Gary Schulte: An mvp perspective that minimizes trust as much as possible, but still leaves us the ability to implement a dial in a timely fashion that's audited and safe and.
Gary Schulte: Just basically safeguards the the stake for for future rewards and future.
Gary Schulte: incentivizing of development of basic.
Grace Hartley: cool.
Grace Hartley: looks like we so we have kind of some next steps into and go ahead, sorry for.
Antoine Toulme: yeah.
Antoine Toulme: At this point I don't feel particularly good instrument for this.
Antoine Toulme: hyper ledger business is a project of the hyper ledger foundation.
Antoine Toulme: And coming to ship to have been too busy with want to be based on contribution so projects if we start having monetary incentives tied to your computer ships can start to feel weird.
Antoine Toulme: There are two things that people should consider one is to refuse this money and get back to working so that we can avoid distractions because this will there's a good chance this will destroy the project and it is.
Antoine Toulme: Just before.
Antoine Toulme: The other one is we entrust the hyper ledger foundation with this funding, because that's where it should go, because the project is the property of the hyper ledger foundation.
Antoine Toulme: And then they will disperse funds and operate the nodes as part of the operating budget as as chartered and then they can use that to reduce fees onboard new people and help the growth of the project.
Antoine Toulme: that's my view.
Antoine Toulme: Is it.
Grace Hartley: yeah I think one thing I would just say is you know it only ruins it if we let it, you know, and that is fully in our control.
Grace Hartley: And I don't want to end, I think you know if we all work together, I think there's really a great way for this to be a huge success for a Su and you know, I think that if we're.
Grace Hartley: Going in with the mindset of this is probably going to destroy us and probably will, if that makes sense, you.
Antoine Toulme: know it doesn't it doesn't make sense it doesn't make sense good you said I don't agree with that.
Antoine Toulme: Okay, I am.
Antoine Toulme: I agree to disagree.
Grace Hartley: Because I think that and that's okay that's Okay, we can agree to disagree, but I just want to be clear that I disagree with that.
Grace Hartley: But I appreciate you I do appreciate you sharing your feedback, because that is very valid.
Justin Florentine: yeah I keep I keep thinking about this and I keep referring back to the E, F and, at the end of the day, what is the F1 to do it's their program they're running it they're distributing the keys.
Justin Florentine: They are assuming Lee putting thought into how they want this to be run, to a degree, the WHO, they are giving the keys to.
Justin Florentine: I understand that this is very open I didn't like the actual details of it, they are not being specific about so like if we talk about.
Justin Florentine: Well, maybe consensus should not have sole control over the keys, then we have to ask ef who they want the keys to go to, and you know how to operate it, so I I hear what people are saying, as far as like well hyper ledger should be running this.
Justin Florentine: Maybe I mean I don't know I mean it's it's ef wants somebody that is a organization, not an individual to operate a fleet of validators with the intense that we.
Justin Florentine: understand the clients that are running it specifically based to as a client and how to feed them and operate them over time so.
Justin Florentine: I keep coming back to you know ef saying consensus here's a bunch of keys and saying like okay well that's our starting point.
Justin Florentine: And then, trying to drive the conversation from there, if we want to go back before that starting point that's fine, I understand that, but nobody on this call represents enough to actually do that.
Justin Florentine: So you know, maybe we just need to have another one of these calls and make sure that we have stronger representation from E, F.
Danno Ferrin: Maybe we should use that as a transition to Point B because we're time box eight minutes over.
Danno Ferrin: There were some concerns about being basically attended progresses me concerns and I think that is the real subtext for what's going on here, why there's concerns about who gets what keys um the fact that the ef only discussed it with consensus, before going public.
Danno Ferrin: There seems to be a subtle feeling that this is a consensus on the project and, seeing that public behavior with with the incentive program was was concerning.
Danno Ferrin: But there's other things that have been developing since i've left consensus, it seems like the number one qualification for becoming a maintainer.
Danno Ferrin: Is employment a consensus and it's just presumed you get hired a consensus you're getting maintain ownership so that's one thing I would like to put their this concern that I have, and then the the the contributors who are not a consensus, or having a difficult time getting their PR.
Danno Ferrin: Unless it's by people who aren't a consensus, so it seems like there's there's an insular separation between consensus and non consensus people.
Danno Ferrin: We need to tear that down, we need to get rid of it, we need to work as a full team across the project, we need to retain people who leave consensus on a project like rye.
Danno Ferrin: And Abdo that's how we get the diversity that is so very important to an open source development project.
Danno Ferrin: So you know some of these concerns were raised up earlier by antwan, but I also share them that.
Danno Ferrin: We need to make sure that we're not just it's not consensus based so it's hyper ledger base ooh and that we find ways instructors and.
Danno Ferrin: Maybe we need to add some more standards to what it means to be a maintainer to to help build maintain the Community.
Danno Ferrin: When it comes to our standards, one thing I would like to propose is the expectation that maintain owners call into the bi weekly calls, at least once a month.
Danno Ferrin: The one appropriately their time zone there's a lot of maintenance on listed, I never see on these calls, and I think that's The least that they could do, and I think being able to talk with people face to face.
Danno Ferrin: You know as much as face to face as you give a zoom release talk to people on the phone, at the same time.
Danno Ferrin: For the project I think it's something that will help build and grow the Community as a Community, and not just as a corporate project, so I think you know, we need to look at you know expectations for what it needs to be a maintainer so i'll see the floor.
Grace Hartley: Gary looks like your hands up.
Gary Schulte: yeah I wouldn't say I think a lot of the problems that.
Gary Schulte: denna was referring to, apart from I I see your your criticism that being hired at consensus is there's an expectation that you are going to be a maintainer that is a logistical issue that as a 31 to resolve.
Gary Schulte: I don't know that there's i'm not aware of PR problems i'm sure there are since you're not the only one to say that, like getting reviews, I think that what we have here, though, is a communication issue.
Gary Schulte: I don't think there's any ill will, I think it's just suboptimal are we on discord are we on rocket chat are we on.
Gary Schulte: matrix how are we actually communicating and coordinating with each other, I think that's our primary problem, but for communication and I think that's the source of most of the friction, if there is perceived friction with PRS.
Rai: yeah I think I think a lot of this would resolve itself if there were a place that people were happy to all communicate.
Rai: But for a long time.
Rai: rocky chat was like.
Rai: Putting last year I.
Grace Hartley: said.
hey.
Antoine Toulme: Do you want to explain to me folks how you actually work on this, because it looks like the consensus, people are working on stuff but.
Antoine Toulme: There isn't that much of design or roadmap being shared in public as a bunch of issues, but some clear my you know there were times I would help and try to review stuff but I don't think it was very welcome, or was it time anything that was lacking context So how do you actually coordinate.
Gary Schulte: yeah I can speak to that, I mean largely what we've been doing what i've been doing, I should say, has been.
Gary Schulte: Coordinating on awkward deb's.
Gary Schulte: Where there's a lot of communication about what the revision of the various specs are for the execution client and then translating those specs into issues and then working on those issues.
Gary Schulte: I haven't made a lot of effort to try to.
Gary Schulte: ask for a lot of help, honestly, because our team that that I work directly with.
Gary Schulte: we're all pretty busy with a lot of different things, a lot of different issues between bonsai and snap sync and.
Gary Schulte: Just just a lot of things going on, so I haven't really made a big effort to.
Gary Schulte: To make a lot, have a lot of communication about this, mostly i've been playing catch up and i've been.
Gary Schulte: Today i've been primarily the only one working on the merge justin's picked up a lot of slack lately juries picked up a lot of slack lately, we can certainly do a lot better job of outreach.
Gary Schulte: Then have some conversation about this.
Gary Schulte: I guess on rocket chat is where we would do that I can we can certainly make an effort to do that.
Gary Schulte: But we've been definitely playing catch up there's all of the other teams, all the other client teams that are on this have had more resources dedicated to it as their primary focus, whereas the merge is somewhat been a secondary focus, at least for basic.
Antoine Toulme: yeah that's kind of what I mean so.
Antoine Toulme: Many by understanding that six months ago, nine months ago I.
Antoine Toulme: opened the road to get to do that in as a project manager was going to help organize and manage the issues for very soon, help us get more visibility to the roadmap and.
Antoine Toulme: Well, it didn't happen right so.
Antoine Toulme: what's going on there, how do you actually do road mapping, why did you say to work on this net okay see PRS all of a sudden, like he shows up and we're.
Antoine Toulme: starting to work on snap sync.
Antoine Toulme: Why would that come up now, is it necessary for the merge what's the design and then you see a bunch of cars and they're six sequential to each other what's what's going on there, do we need to care about this is feedback even welcome.
Antoine Toulme: um, how do you want to work through this.
Gary Schulte: yeah.
Gary Schulte: yeah definitely feedback is welcome, and I think.
Gary Schulte: I think a lot of the problem is that we are.
Gary Schulte: The chupacabra team at consensus who's doing basically mean that I think that we are a lot of the coordination that we're doing is.
Gary Schulte: via the eighth R amp D discord and those channels as opposed to the hyper ledger channels and I think that's something that's an oversight that we should probably need to get that sorted out.
Gary Schulte: But yeah I agree road mapping, I think, is somewhat insular as well, and perhaps we need to open open up road mapping.
Gary Schulte: Calls just.
Gary Schulte: Over zoom have it, have an additional hyper ledger contributor.
Gary Schulte: Road mapping meeting in addition to our hyper ledger contributor meeting.
Grace Hartley: Gary is it Okay, if I jump in.
Grace Hartley: I think.
Grace Hartley: So maybe to make these little actionable like I think yeah is you know just to be clear yeah I think everyone here has worked really hard on base ooh for and the but specifically just playing catch up like.
Grace Hartley: Gary justin hearing all have joined consensus in the last six months, something like that.
Grace Hartley: So it's still getting up to speed yeah and most of the two because our team is the same so just you know.
Grace Hartley: giving them a break that i'm really proud of them that they're engaging and want to be better, and this is really, really great so just wanted to but.
Grace Hartley: Also, just with a you know some of the historical context and things that we've done have have just been lost, which it, which is OK, you are and we can reset now, which is just fine, but just want to give them a break first heck but uh.
Grace Hartley: You know so but I was thinking, these are a couple of good ideas, so I just wanted to make some kind of get the group's pulse on so there seemed to be a couple of ideas one was.
Grace Hartley: Having you know, making kind of are not making but I guess the the quarter request is that all contributors facing maintainer has joined their respective contributor call I think that's a reasonable ask.
Grace Hartley: You know and or at least you know, having everyone on invites and you know if they can't make it, you know the regrets are sent and it's clear who's attending that day and who's not.
Grace Hartley: that's an easy I think that's reasonable and the other one is a public roadmap.
Grace Hartley: We did used to do this, and I think we just honestly like you know, I think, frankly, Tim because the one who did it and it just never was transition properly so.
Grace Hartley: We can definitely start having updating the one on the on the wiki I believe we have a page for it, we just haven't been updated again just because it's been busy so we appreciate you guys bearing with us, but that doesn't mean we can't do it.
Grace Hartley: and have it be a part of the regular contributor calls on the agenda there.
Grace Hartley: I think, then, the third point is.
Grace Hartley: So sorry i'm just taking notes, while i'm talking here so.
Grace Hartley: The third point is.
Grace Hartley: Once again, so then just writing this down with roadmap wiki covered.
Grace Hartley: And then the other one is around the chat and I think we i'd love to get everyone's feedback but we're obviously at the hyper ledger level trying to come up with a proposal, and I think it's clear that the beta team feels very strongly about.
Grace Hartley: Moving everything to discord.
Grace Hartley: yeah I know, and I think.
Grace Hartley: I think, so the goal is, by the end of January to have a proposal and have us be able to kind of implement moving over and then so.
Grace Hartley: I make no promises, because it is a tlc decision.
Grace Hartley: With some kind of drawbacks, but that is, I just wanted to address that one that i'm really hoping it'll be addressed in January pretty quickly here.
Grace Hartley: Because I do think it's challenging when we're all in different places and.
Grace Hartley: And you know and a lot of the coordination will be so much easier for everyone to follow what's going on and not looking at five different chats in the world, but I think there's a clear obvious case for basic to move over, even if the rest of the.
Grace Hartley: Projects choose not to.
Grace Hartley: But, but so I guess Those are three proposals and I just wanted to kind of does that feel like a good start, you know i'm not saying everything self today, you know, but does that feel like things that the group is willing to commit to and it's comfortable with.
Danno Ferrin: um here's the soft proposal, maybe we should do a non business call during the non business weeks, just to hang out and get to know people, maybe not record it talk about issues.
Justin Florentine: I kind of love that.
Gary Schulte: yeah yeah same here, especially the not recorded but that'd be fun.
Danno Ferrin: To stand up.
Grace Hartley: and talk.
Antoine Toulme: yeah just going back to what you were saying.
Antoine Toulme: grace I think discord is fine.
Antoine Toulme: At the Apache software foundation, we use email because email is not something you can revoke money for the change have admin rights over that easily.
Antoine Toulme: And it works pretty well it's very good Italian in how much putting everybody at the very base level of communication it's a huge drawback is it's quite huge spreads.
Antoine Toulme: But there is a thing of the pitches if it didn't happen on list it happened, and I think that's.
Antoine Toulme: The thing we need to leave by to that she didn't happen in public comes then it's done been discussed, so the thing that I would want us to make sure of, though, is that.
Antoine Toulme: Right now, there are stuff that's happening in public on rocket chat and we're not catching it and I don't see how this course can be marginally better than that, so I don't think it does change, we need to fix things but i'm willing to try.
Danno Ferrin: i've had chats on rocket chat and not show up.
Danno Ferrin: On my phone.
Danno Ferrin: diego's PR didn't show up on my phone ever and i've tried refreshing and reloaded it doesn't show up on my phone, so I am willing to put some blame on rocket chat.
Okay.
Rai: I mean that it's also up to you know the consensus team.
Rai: To like use that as a default.
Rai: And then use like the internal consensus chats just for like consensus related stuff but just a matter of like Okay, is this and usable not to use as a deep off not like does it.
Rai: doesn't actually get the bits across us, is it like pleasurable to us.
Rai: which apparently doesn't even get the bits at all, sometimes different agenda.
Justin Florentine: yeah.
Justin Florentine: I never mind that you guys are both right.
Justin Florentine: Both Anton and down yeah I think I definitely see a lot of things from like we're trying to have conversations here in rocket chat and it's just not getting any uptake.
Justin Florentine: And I also have a hell of a time trying to find threads and you know did this response going to go somewhere else and etc so.
Justin Florentine: yeah i'm gonna integrate with both digress.
Danno Ferrin: We can make a lot more rooms and discord we can have a review request room, which will really help simplify that workflow so when some of those review requests and and there's pages of conversation that won't get lost.
Grace Hartley: I think, also something that would be like you know.
Grace Hartley: i'd push us to be data driven here and what's really cool right now is the analytics for basic like lf team has like this cool you know annex dashboard.
Grace Hartley: i'd love us to like look at it, maybe every so often I need to look at it more closely, but one idea I had was you know.
Grace Hartley: You know our peoples PRS been reviewed, we could look at the average time or look at all of them on the dashboard as a part of the.
Grace Hartley: contributor call like I feel like that data is pretty if it's not already in the dashboard would it be hard to do.
Grace Hartley: Or we could look at the open ones, you know yeah you might know better than I, but I was like I feel like that would be a good way to keep us honest and also be like hey is this here, is it not I don't know you know, like.
Grace Hartley: But just it and, but you know we have kind of an easy way to just won't get the information and we can leverage that but Dana what are your ideas are.
Danno Ferrin: So the time that the.
Danno Ferrin: PR stay open is one of the metrics they put in, I know, but I was pretty excited about it because it's.
Danno Ferrin: Honestly, you know switching putting on my CSC hat that's a metric I think we should judge all projects by am that woman's when it's yeah right Jones yes, thank you right, sir.
Danno Ferrin: But yeah by Jones he was really excited about it.
Danno Ferrin: Because it I think it's very important Community metric you know you scratch, an itch you put it out there and it stays out there for a month and you forget about it and they come on up to review request that's a bad onboarding experience.
Danno Ferrin: And I think that's one of the hats, we need to post maintain owners, is what does it take to get users to become contributors become entertainers.
Danno Ferrin: And stuff like that I think you know, in addition to keep the current maintainer it's going to bring new maintains and get growth going on in this project, which will really help.
Danno Ferrin: and
Grace Hartley: i'll go ahead.
Antoine Toulme: and say completely agree.
Antoine Toulme: i've seen other organizations such as the open telemetry project they use a specific subpopulation of github users and they actually apply.
Antoine Toulme: different path of the repository to different people so that the person is being applied to specific portion of the code this way.
Antoine Toulme: there's these two people per portion of the code that know that they're reviewing these portion of if any PR touches their.
Antoine Toulme: code they're responsible for putting this stuff and that's actually when it's interesting to the beat of the project is they don't have rights to merge.
Antoine Toulme: They get you in there there's a different role for someone who's reading to go around and do like large batches of merging just you know pretty much it's an admin function almost so that's that's the way.
Antoine Toulme: I like what you mentioned, is one of the thing is, if you take the money from the F we're gonna get a lot of inbound going to get a lot of people being to be certainly very interested in participating in business.
Antoine Toulme: Because I get a chance for some some cash rewards at the end right so.
Antoine Toulme: that's The thing that we might want to prepare ourselves for that maybe have better and bonnie and also better ways to to deal with in bellevue office setting some some real limits and.
Antoine Toulme: Better experiences a computer.
Antoine Toulme: So you just thought.
Danno Ferrin: Oh, you mentioned code owners initially I resisted it when we were smaller project, but I think we're at the size and scope or I think it's appropriate there are things about.
Danno Ferrin: kp FT consensus that I had no clue and no desire to learn about, but I am intimately and painfully familiar with certain parts of the vm, so I think we're getting to the point where differentiation among the maintainer is is probably a good thing.
Gary Schulte: let's jump in real quick, I completely agree with that, I think that there's something to be said about discovery and discovery that happens as part of doing review on code you don't know so it'd be nice if there was some.
Gary Schulte: Some mechanism there where we still have that exposure and discovery that we don't just rely on some entrenched in ossified.
Gary Schulte: handful you know shortlist of people who know only the only ones we know about give you FT.
Gary Schulte: For example.
Danno Ferrin: let's pick on a team where it's 2am at their place.
Grace Hartley: So we only have three minutes left, so I kind of want to just wrap and make sure we have kind of the clear action item send next steps ready any.
Grace Hartley: For the next call so just to be clear, we have a next call i'm going to look at my calendar now it's is it next week, but it's APEC friendly I believe so it's 9pm Eastern on the third on Monday okay.
Grace Hartley: So.
Grace Hartley: To be clear, we probably will share the notes out of the agenda out I don't think we'd have.
Grace Hartley: A couple of actions I have captured first maybe it's worth calling out come back with a detailed understanding of what it takes to run a validator note.
Grace Hartley: To be clear, I don't think we'll have that ready for Monday so just want to set those expectations, but I think in the next week or two, we can.
Grace Hartley: Just be clear that will not be ready for Monday the next couple things is, I think it makes sense to review these ideas for improving the basic Community with.
Grace Hartley: That group just because they haven't been a part of the conversations in the last couple weeks, I want to make sure that we get their feedback, but I think we can start to implement a few of them there.
Grace Hartley: I think.
Grace Hartley: But I don't see any issues for that are you know no red flags, but at least get them started.
Grace Hartley: Then.
Grace Hartley: I think those are that's it that's actually the only kind of two big items, am I missing anything anything else.
Gary Schulte: I was hoping to take just a couple of.
Gary Schulte: Quick room temperature polls.
Gary Schulte: The first is just so that we don't invest a lot of time and effort into ideas that are unpopular.
Gary Schulte: what's the what's the upper down on whether we think that it's wise to to try to token eyes the encumbered grants and rewards and use that as the basis of adele does that How does that How does that sit with folks just hasn't notion.
Justin Florentine: it's an open, I know.
Gary Schulte: a cry from Anton.
Justin Florentine: yeah i'm kind of like can I defer my vote to somebody that knows something about crypto economics, because.
Justin Florentine: i'm not going to have a useful opinion on this.
Justin Florentine: Like I think after we have a conversation with lex or somebody somebody that can.
Justin Florentine: Explain crypto economics and how could work in this situation, I got nothing to bring the table.
Gary Schulte: Okay.
Danno Ferrin: I got one word sushi.
Justin Florentine: yeah.
Gary Schulte: yeah and I don't know exactly how you're drawing that comparison, but I certainly don't want to be compared to sushi.
Justin Florentine: Okay, let me.
Danno Ferrin: Put a proposal up i'll put a proposal up myself before the end of the day, what my vision would be so.
Justin Florentine: Okay, thanks cool.
yeah.
Gary Schulte: This is uh.
Gary Schulte: yeah that we have some some other proposals out there cool I think that's that's really it, because if if we want to that I guess the other, the other.
Gary Schulte: temperature check is half of the client teams have already claimed their validator program rewards do we have.
Gary Schulte: Do we think that there's it's something that we should mvp on and get involved in the program and sort out the the the trustee slash decentralized.
Gary Schulte: nature of participating the program afterwards, and we want to have a program upfront before we accept the grant from it yeah.
Grace Hartley: I think we should give it a week or two and get a few of these ideas out and then I think it's too early to say if that makes sense, but I recognize time is of the essence and we don't want to delay too long, but I just I think it's a little too premature to get a.
Gary Schulte: completely.
Grace Hartley: gone there yeah.
Grace Hartley: But yeah.
Gary Schulte: I think every.
Grace Hartley: Very soon as a good goal, but just let's give it a week or two of just kind of picking out.
Grace Hartley: cool which one is over, I apologize, I will share the notes in the chat and all that I will have.
Grace Hartley: And then I will share the.
Grace Hartley: The recording and all of that, I do think monday's call might be a little bit of a repeat of the last couple conversations just to catch that group up, so I don't want to like, but I do you think the following contributor call maybe we'll do another ice off cycle one.
Grace Hartley: The week of the 10th and I think that will be much more meaty but I will will will share the agendas and get that circuiting with the group so and Dana will look out for your proposal appreciate that cool thanks I appreciate it.
Justin Florentine: yeah.